BSE confirmed in Ayrshire

[ollie989898]

Prove me wrong.

Prove what? I've outlined where you've gone wrong in my replies.

 

[Interested in farming]

Prove what? I've outlined where you've gone wrong in my replies.

Not in any way with any facts. You've expressed unsubstantiated opinions (including understanding genetic susceptibility which indicates you don't understand the topic)
BSE and vCJD are linked by scientific and medical research. Prove. Me. Wrong.

 

[ollie989898]

Not in any way with any facts. You've expressed unsubstantiated opinions (including understanding genetic susceptibility which indicates you don't understand the topic)
BSE and vCJD are linked by scientific and medical research. Prove. Me. Wrong.

I've addressed your post regarding genetic susceptibility- the information available does not support your claim because the prevalence of that allele is so high that it is meaningless and because cases have been detected in people without it. That fudges your claim.

I am not arguing against the data, I am pointing out that there isn't enough data to have much faith in what is claimed and there is a complete lack of real-world data to back up laboratory work done in animal models.

I've stated millions of people must logically have been exposed (this is somewhat supported by the epidemiological evidence but they don't actually fudging know).

I've stated that millions of people (not just in Europe but worldwide) have the MM homogenous allele (and this is supported by the data) which you claim makes people susceptible to vCJD specifically. And yet we do not have thousands of cases of any kind of CJD, let alone variant CJD, despite the fact that here we are now 30 years on. Are we to wait another 30 years to meet the incubation period you mentioned before anyone is proven right?

Our understanding of prion diseases is clearly incomplete. Experts originally made the claim millions would get it. They then revised their estimates down by entire orders of magnitude on the basis of evidence of prion infection in tissue samples.

Put simply, what the fudge do you expect anyone to believe on the back of all of this?

 

[matthew]

Not in any way with any facts. You've expressed unsubstantiated opinions (including understanding genetic susceptibility which indicates you don't understand the topic)
BSE and vCJD are linked by scientific and medical research. Prove. Me. Wrong.

I was told by the chairman of SEAC (Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory committee) in 1996, that all the cases of vCJD in humans thus far, were of one genotype.
Was he wrong too?
He also confirmed that there was NO maternal transmission. I won't go too deeply into the trial from which they gleaned that data, as having tried (and failed) to calve in clinical BSE cattle, I asked him how did they collect the candidates? (Several hundred)
The answer came eventually, that they had collected calves ex farm from clinically confirmed cases, at UP TO 18 MONTHS OF AGE.
In other words, the possibility of early ingestion had not been ruled out.

As i wanted to keep his contact and input, my reply was not as spikey as it could have been, but he did describe 'intense political pressure' SEAC were under to get answers.

And no one has commented on my question in post #176, so I'll pose it again.

"Have you considered that the causation circumstances, either by application or ingestion or both, to which our calves and their mums were subjected to, also applied to young human mums? Leading to vCJD in their offspring in their teens and twenties?
(The brain in the Corsellis collection was from memory, that of a young person in their early 20s who died in the first part of last century)"

Correlation of vCJD / BSE is not necessarily causation of one leading to the other. They could both be caused by similar intakes or applications.

 

[som farmer]

All opinion Ollie, as ever you give an opinion and no facts. I'll ask you again to produce data disproving a link.
You might not like what the research says (which is in depth, peer reviewed and widely accepted) but that's how science works.

If exposure in the population is so low why was i asked about it at every operation?

Deaths and exposures are all globally accepted figures, just not by you.

vCJD and BSE are linked. Prove me wrong.

l know where ollie gets his information from.

where do you get yours from, having cited articles, written, in many cases, to obtain further funds, from industry, or guv. That was very obvious at the time, and funding was cut back, to stop these alarming results, not proven, requiring further research, and please will you give me some money to do it.

l suspect you are at least 20 times more likely, to be hit crossing the road, than catching CJD.

also, they were not routinely, or deliberately looking for CJD, before BSE, so in reality it could have been there all the time, but under the radar.

l seriously wish you could put your zeal, into highlighting the dangers of ultra processed food, which definitely will kill a lot of people.

 

[Top Tip.]

Prove me wrong.

Prove him wrong.It is all hypotheses and conjecture done on computer modelling the most of it.

 

[Hilly]

l know where ollie gets his information from.

where do you get yours from, having cited articles, written, in many cases, to obtain further funds, from industry, or guv. That was very obvious at the time, and funding was cut back, to stop these alarming results, not proven, requiring further research, and please will you give me some money to do it.

l suspect you are at least 20 times more likely, to be hit crossing the road, than catching CJD.

also, they were not routinely, or deliberately looking for CJD, before BSE, so in reality it could have been there all the time, but under the radar.

l seriously wish you could put your zeal, into highlighting the dangers of ultra processed food, which definitely will kill a lot of people.

And drugs and booze and fags ……. Vcjd is nowt to worry about imo.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Nah

Yes;


"Prion diseases are transmissible between animal-to-animal, animal-to-human and human-to-human; however, we still do not understand completely the mechanisms, factors and biological processes that control the transmission of this unique infectious agent. The transmission of some of the naturally acquired forms of TSEs (such as vCJD, kuru, BSE) has been linked to the consumption of meat or meat-derived products from individuals affected by the disease (Collinge, 2001; Prusiner, 2001). On the other hand, some of the most prevalent and horizontally-transmissible animal TSEs, including scrapie and CWD, have implicated environmental contamination with prions as a putative mode of transmission (Mathiason et al., 2009; Gough and Maddison, 2010; Bartelt-Hunt and Bartz, 2013). Various studies have shown that infectious prions can enter the environment through saliva, feces, urine, blood or placenta from infected animals, as well as by decaying carcasses (Mathiason et al., 2006; Haley et al., 2009; Tamguney et al., 2009; Maddison et al., 2010; Haley et al., 2011; Terry et al., 2011). It has been shown that infectious prions bind tightly to soil and remain infectious for years in this material, suggesting that environmental contamination of soil may play a role in TSE spreading (Johnson et al., 2006; Seidel et al., 2007; Johnson et al., 2007). Since the main natural hosts for animal TSEs (sheep, cattle and cervids) are herbivores, it is surprising that the interaction between prions and plants and the putative role of these organisms as carriers of prion infectivity has not been studied in detail. The main goal of this study was to evaluate whether plants can bind, retain, uptake and transport prions in an experimental setting. Overall, our findings show that grass plants efficiently interact with prions, suggesting that they may play an important role in natural prion transmission, particularly in wild animals."

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Jack this is my frustration do you understand the different types of CJD.

There is no link between sporadic CJD and BSE. The clue is in the name sporadic. vCJD and sporadic CJD are DIFERENT diseases.

Creutzfeldt Jakob Disease - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Is a good explanation of the differences but the highlights are

Patients with sporadic CJD are typically between 55 and 75 years old. Death occurs within a year of onset, with the median duration of illness being 4 to 5 months. The median age of death in individuals with sporadic CJD is 68 years. Sporadic CJD is similar to dementia in presentation but progresses much more rapidly.

Inherited CJD is fatal, though the duration of illness varies individually. For example, Gerstmann–Straussler–Scheinker syndrome has a slow progression, and death may be delayed for up to 10 years

Patients with variant CJD are often younger than patients with sporadic CJD, initially presenting with psychiatric symptoms, behavioral changes, and painful dysesthesias. Movement disorders may develop early, but dementia is usually a late sign

Too big to lift the relevant buts of you but read the section on 'evaluation' covering diagnosis

I am genuinely extremely grateful for all your posts as I think I understand but always willing to learn.

I always mean what I say but I fear i regularly fail to say exactly what I mean.

The original and principle issue I had is your assertion that it was absolutely conclusive that all those suffering from vCJD, did so as a direct result from eating meat contaminated with BSE. I have still yet to read any study that proves that.
Of course BSE, CJD, vCJD, scrapie erc. are linked in that they are all diseases caused by prions.
But beyond that, how they are linked is less clear.
I believe that purely saying that BSE caused vCJD is not only potentially incorrect but unhelpful in understanding what happened and predicting what can happen.

 

[livestock 1]

I am genuinely extremely grateful for all your posts as I think I understand but always willing to learn.

I always mean what I say but I fear i regularly fail to say exactly what I mean.

The original and principle issue I had is your assertion that it was absolutely conclusive that all those suffering from vCJD, did so as a direct result from eating meat contaminated with BSE. I have still yet to read any study that proves that.
Of course BSE, CJD, vCJD, scrapie erc. are linked in that they are all diseases caused by prions.
But beyond that, how they are linked is less clear.
I believe that purely saying that BSE caused vCJD is not only potentially incorrect but unhelpful in understanding what happened and predicting what can happen.

Years ago we had some sheep tested by the government for what they called bse
I wasn’t happy about the assumption and told them so

 

[glasshouse]

I am genuinely extremely grateful for all your posts as I think I understand but always willing to learn.

I always mean what I say but I fear i regularly fail to say exactly what I mean.

The original and principle issue I had is your assertion that it was absolutely conclusive that all those suffering from vCJD, did so as a direct result from eating meat contaminated with BSE. I have still yet to read any study that proves that.
Of course BSE, CJD, vCJD, scrapie erc. are linked in that they are all diseases caused by prions.
But beyond that, how they are linked is less clear.
I believe that purely saying that BSE caused vCJD is not only potentially incorrect but unhelpful in understanding what happened and predicting what can happen.

Vcjd caused bse from imported human bones from india in mbm feeds

 

[som farmer]

Vcjd caused bse from imported human bones from india in mbm feeds

not a politically correct answer

we mustn't upset other friendly countries beliefs etc.

and they don't eat cows anyway

 

[som farmer]

And drugs and booze and fags ……. Vcjd is nowt to worry about imo.

painkillers dull the brain

but stopped me drinking, hangovers were horrendous, anything over 2 pints.

future wife stopped me smoking some 45 yrs ago

life can be sooooo boring at times

 

[glasshouse]

not a politically correct answer

we mustn't upset other friendly countries beliefs etc.

and they don't eat cows anyway

They had cjd in the population

 

[som farmer]

They had cjd in the population

ah, but what did they call it ? not mad cow disease !

it would be interesting to see, which ethnic group, if any, vCJD is traced to.

 

[primmiemoo]

And drugs and booze and fags ……. Vcjd is nowt to worry about imo.

Devastating for the sufferer and those closest to them, though. Let's not lose sight of that. All of the prion diseases are terrible, whichever the species.

The prion disease known as CWD in deer in the USA is monitored as closely as it's possible to do in wild animals, in case it's transmissible to human hunters who are most likely to eat the meat from an infected animal. Over time, there is no proven transmission. There were concerns about a handful of cases of CJD or vCJD, but on close investigation, they could not be linked to eating infected deer.

 

[primmiemoo]

They had cjd in the population

From the wider population, there may have been just one who had the vCJD prions ~ it's incredibly rare, within a rare category ~ and the remains of that poor soul began it all. Pure speculation on my part, obviously.

There was once a trade in Egyptian mummies ~ ground up centuries after mummification to use as fertiliser, and even in quack remedies. Presumably, the mummification process (removal of organs beforehand) was the reason why no diseases were suspected as arising from the powders sold.

 

[primmiemoo]

ah, but what did they call it ? not mad cow disease !

it would be interesting to see, which ethnic group, if any, vCJD is traced to.

If the trade in mixed bones from the Indian subcontinent did contain CJD or vCJD prions, then it's just possible that the diagnosis wasn't made in the poor soul (or souls) who suffered from the disease before they died. Access to medical professionals in parts of India is at third world levels.

 

[Hilly]

Devastating for the sufferer and those closest to them, though. Let's not lose sight of that. All of the prion diseases are terrible, whichever the species.

The prion disease known as CWD in deer in the USA is monitored as closely as it's possible to do in wild animals, in case it's transmissible to human hunters who are most likely to eat the meat from an infected animal. Over time, there is no proven transmission. There were concerns about a handful of cases of CJD or vCJD, but on close investigation, they could not be linked to eating infected deer.

Yes i agree, i wont be concerning
myself with vcjd i think i will die from something else i bet £5 i do .

 

[glasshouse]

If the trade in mixed bones from the Indian subcontinent did contain CJD or vCJD prions, then it's just possible that the diagnosis wasn't made in the poor soul (or souls) who suffered from the disease before they died. Access to medical professionals in parts of India is at third world levels.

Not “just possible”
I would say very very highly unlikely they were diagnosed