Divide and Rule

[RobFZS]

getting more and more like 1984 as the days go on.

 

[Chris...]

Rob, the French love the Queen and the Brits.
However, they know French power and influence in Europe will be increased if the UK leaves.
So, although they will be amazed and mystified, they will probably be secretly pleased with a Brexit.
Regardless if the UK remains or goes, my neighbours will still give me cherries, olives and apricots from their trees.

 

[linga]

Divide and Rule[/QUOTE]

The EU!!
Managed to keep Europe at peace with itself since its inception.
Of course some of its members got bored and sallied off for a war or three outside Europe.

And thats definitely down to the EU then is it?

 

[turbo]

Divide and Rule

And thats definitely down to the EU then is it?[/QUOTE]
Why who else is responsible

 

[Ashtree]

Divide and Rule

And thats definitely down to the EU then is it?[/QUOTE]

A very very big influencer on stability in Europe for sure. As indeed foreseen by none other than Churchill when he clearly stated his preference for a united Europe. The founders of the EU lived through and led their respective countries in the rebuilding after the war. Their ideals were much higher than the petty squabbling which passes today for politics and political debate!!

 

[Danllan]

Rob, the French love the Queen and the Brits.
However, they know French power and influence in Europe will be increased if the UK leaves.
So, although they will be amazed and mystified, they will probably be secretly pleased with a Brexit.
Regardless if the UK remains or goes, my neighbours will still give me cherries, olives and apricots from their trees.

Hmm... I thought at first you seemed a bit troll-like, what with the provocative statement. And you might be, but I think you probably are a genuine 'European', good for you, stay there and we'll stay here wallowing in our democratic economically competent island.

When one hears of talk about the UK needing to show more 'European solidarity' from Junker and his like, what it really means is handing over cash etc. to others rather than spending it on ourselves. Your country of choice, France, is fast on the way to being economically (and socially) up the creek and would very soon be so too if not supported by others, most notably Germany (via the Euro). And that's all fine, I really don't mind, you and they can do what you please over there.

But this is the nub, like all religious dogmatists, it isn't enough for 'true Europeans' (in the Junkerian sense) to be in it by themselves, everybody else has to follow the path too... No thanks, as I wrote earlier, I'll tough it out over here in our fiscally competent democracy. Don't waste your time pitying us, enjoy your fruit and your Euroland, but do come and visit some time to tell us how great it is there, I'll treat you some of mine or my neighbour's beef... .

 

[RobFZS]

And thats definitely down to the EU then is it?

A very very big influencer on stability in Europe for sure. As indeed foreseen by none other than Churchill when he clearly stated his preference for a united Europe. The founders of the EU lived through and led their respective countries in the rebuilding after the war. Their ideals were much higher than the petty squabbling which passes today for politics and political debate!!

Aye, but as churchill said, a united europe, with us not in it, which is fine by me

 

[bobk]

Vote in until the subs go , then f**k off ,simples ........ we're farmers not world leaders

 

[Chris...]

Danllan, I am old enough to have witnessed on many occasions, the huge amount of nonsense and hype that goes on ahead of an election. By politicians, the media, and the voters. Only to then see how little changes after the election. And so it will be with Brexit – life will simply go on, much the same, but with an increasing sense of anti-climax.

I like to think I can see the bigger picture. The EU is a mess, of course it is. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to stay that way away for ever. I feel a lot of people are choosing Brexit based on how the EU is now, and not what it could become.

When airplanes were made of canvas, or computers weighed five tons, some people judged them as useless and walked away. Others hung in there and tried to make things better for the common good. Of course it’s a gamble, but if the UK leaves, and the EU becomes a successful and powerful United States of Europe, history will judge the UK is being egotistical and lacking vision.

I was going to say "we shall see", but we won’t see – because that bit of history won’t be written in our lifetime. Enjoy your evening.

 

[its yourself]

so you want to be part of a federal european superstate?

Remind me where countries coming together under a federal state has worked before?

Worked out ok when the federal USA took bits of Canada Mexico etc by force.

 

[its yourself]

How long has the Uk been together now?

The usa has hardly any history together, slinging countries together, with alot of history to create some sort of marxist superstate never has worked, nor will it ever.

It still does not answer the question though, do you want a federal superstate? the premise of everyone lumping together to pull the same way is nice, if we were all robots, but we're not, we have different languages, different history, different attitudes and i'm afraid, it will never work.

Not long.

The Republic of Ireland?

Independent EU members?

 

[Ashtree]

Aye, but as churchill said, a united europe, with us not in it, which is fine by me

Ahem. ...... For the "facts" read on[emoji57] http://theconversation.com/what-churchill-really-thought-about-britains-place-in-europe-36613

 

[RobFZS]

Ahem. ...... For the "facts" read on[emoji57] http://theconversation.com/what-churchill-really-thought-about-britains-place-in-europe-36613

oh god, here we go, all the randomly selected quotes of churchill, his own grandson said a few weeks back, his opinion on the eu now, is frankly worthless comparing it on todays eu to the situation back then.

 

[rob1]

I like to think I can see the bigger picture. The EU is a mess, of course it is. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to stay that way away for ever. I feel a lot of people are choosing Brexit based on how the EU is now, and not what it could become.


I was going to say "we shall see", but we won’t see – because that bit of history won’t be written in our lifetime. Enjoy your evening.

The difference with the EU is that it started ok being a trading block and has got worse ever since, most things start out being crap and improve,
It is silly comparing the US and europe, the US is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds, who came together to form a NEW nation, they all have one language, I know a lot speak spanish but english is THEIR native tongue,they wiped out the original inhabitants for all intents, how many tongues does europe have let alone thousands of years of history, forcing different people to live as one has never worked in history, look at the old USSR only force and fear kept it together and that only lasted 70years, the middle east is another example where the tribal nature of the human race is evident.
We can and will live happily together as separate but cooperative nations we dont need a superstate

 

[Danllan]

Danllan, I am old enough to have witnessed on many occasions, the huge amount of nonsense and hype that goes on ahead of an election. By politicians, the media, and the voters. Only to then see how little changes after the election. And so it will be with Brexit – life will simply go on, much the same, but with an increasing sense of anti-climax.

I like to think I can see the bigger picture. The EU is a mess, of course it is. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to stay that way away for ever. I feel a lot of people are choosing Brexit based on how the EU is now, and not what it could become.

When airplanes were made of canvas, or computers weighed five tons, some people judged them as useless and walked away. Others hung in there and tried to make things better for the common good. Of course it’s a gamble, but if the UK leaves, and the EU becomes a successful and powerful United States of Europe, history will judge the UK is being egotistical and lacking vision.

I was going to say "we shall see", but we won’t see – because that bit of history won’t be written in our lifetime. Enjoy your evening.

We agree that for the most part life will go on as usual post-Brexit. As for bigger pictures, I suppose we all have imaginations and can use them both to predict and to fantasize, you could well be right that the EU may one day prosper, it is possible.

But I think in one key way you are wrong; formerly I was a lawyer, I have read all of the treaties so far ratified and have understood them to the satisfaction of examiners and, later, Judges. I am also familiar with the law that is relevant to EU membership from the legislature downwards. All of the treaties, all of them and the open words of the senior politicians in the EU all indicate that there will not be a 'United States' of Europe; to create such an entity is not their intention and the structures so far created - as well as those proposed and planned - bear this out. No, their intention is for a United State of Europe, nothing less.

I, and I think most Brits, did not and do not want to be a part of any such thing. We joined for trade, nothing more and all else that you might think of as a bonus is not what was in mind of the British people on joining the EEC, nor on the whole now. We see our country changing, and although some change can be good, we do not like the way it has changed.

Who can say how history will judge anything and, really, who cares? We can't live our lives thinking of how those in the year 2516 may regard us, it would be absurd to do so, not least because we have no idea how morals and accepted behaviour may change in ways that we might regard as for better or worse, meat-eating or alcohol drinking might be abhorrent then, will you stop eating meat or drinking wine now on that chance? I guess not.

But here is a suggestion, despite your being in Europe, if you are keen for the UK to be part of a greater 'State' - for want of a better word - why not wish us to have a closer union of the Anglo-Celtic peoples with whom we have far more in common? I can and indeed have walked down streets in Australia, New Zealand, the US and Canada and have been surrounded by people who speak the same language as me, share almost all of the same laws, share religions (although I am an atheist I recognise this is important to some), share politics, share history and share blood. If you wanted a wide and far-reaching United State, a state that was at ease with itself and had little if any internal frictions, surely this would be a more likely outcome with a re-union of the Anglo-Celtic world.

Failing that, what need is there to be any more 'powerful' than to be able to defend yourself and your interests, or richer than necessary to see your countrymen happy? I think the British Empire was in general a good thing, but the age of empire has passed for us for the foreseeable future. We are a nuclear power, we are effectively invulnerable to state-on-state aggression due to this and our NATO membership. It has been joked that the EU exists because Germany couldn't be trusted not to fight and France couldn't be trusted to do so, a joke but a truism too. And the EU is about France and Germany, with Germany assuaging its war-guilt by pandering to France's wants and, now, also setting the foreign / immigration policy for all.

We will be fine as an independent trading nation, it is our natural state. Good evening to you too.

 

[Chris...]

Rob, you are right, it is silly comparing the US and Europe. As you say, ‘the US is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds’, who mostly came from Europe. Europe on the other hand, 'is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds', who mostly came from Europe.

Danllan, you say “…have been surrounded by people who speak the same language as me”. IMO, don’t attach too much importance to language. When you live in an International area, like the French Riviera, or you speak different languages, you will quickly realise everyone speaks the same language, they just vocalise it differently.

Also, whether they live in the United States of Europe, or the United State of Europe, the people now living in Portugal, Cyprus, Ireland or Finland will remain very different people. Arguably, a United State of Europe would be better, as I find it ridiculous there are so many contradictory and different laws around the US States. As a lawyer, you should appreciate having unified laws would be better for all.

 

[Danllan]

Rob, you are right, it is silly comparing the US and Europe. As you say, ‘the US is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds’, who mostly came from Europe. Europe on the other hand, 'is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds', who mostly came from Europe.

Danllan, you say “…have been surrounded by people who speak the same language as me”. IMO, don’t attach too much importance to language. When you live in an International area, like the French Riviera, or you speak different languages, you will quickly realise everyone speaks the same language, they just vocalise it differently.

Also, whether they live in the United States of Europe, or the United State of Europe, the people now living in Portugal, Cyprus, Ireland or Finland will remain very different people. Arguably, a United State of Europe would be better, as I find it ridiculous there are so many contradictory and different laws around the US States. As a lawyer, you should appreciate having unified laws would be better for all.

The law around the US - i.e. state as opposed to federal - is not really contradictory since it must all be compatible with the Constitution. Further, the Common Law base they and we work from is far closer then the Code system imposed upon Europe.

The US was and is still predominantly of Anglo-Celtic origin, this will change and many there regret that and the further effects it will have on the nation. You made the point that the peoples of Europe will remain very different I agree, and that is key to the failure of the European project.

The point about vocalising differently is a bit of a liberal platitude. I my own house we have three different languages spoken, and I and my family have several more between us. You seem to confuse love of one's own with dislike of others.

Lastly, I do not agree that having 'unified laws' would be better for all, still less when it is undemocratically imposed. But if I were to agree with that, I would say that it would be more rational to work from an established and widespread base; the Common Law is used throughout the old British Empire / Commonwealth and, commercially, in China too. This would surely be the argument for the EU adopting it, to allow 'unity' on a global scale.

 

[rob1]

Rob, you are right, it is silly comparing the US and Europe. As you say, ‘the US is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds’, who mostly came from Europe. Europe on the other hand, 'is made up of a mix of many different people from many cultures and backgrounds', who mostly came from Europe.

Danllan, you say “…have been surrounded by people who speak the same language as me”. IMO, don’t attach too much importance to language. When you live in an International area, like the French Riviera, or you speak different languages, you will quickly realise everyone speaks the same language, they just vocalise it differently.

Also, whether they live in the United States of Europe, or the United State of Europe, the people now living in Portugal, Cyprus, Ireland or Finland will remain very different people. Arguably, a United State of Europe would be better, as I find it ridiculous there are so many contradictory and different laws around the US States. As a lawyer, you should appreciate having unified laws would be better for all.

One huge difference, those from europe all moved to a new country rather than being mixed in an existing one, even then they had a very bloody civil war 90 years after the dec of independence, its more relevant to look at Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, see what happened there when they were pushed together

 

[Billhook]

Regarding Brexit; Head of Russia's Council on Foreign and Defence Policy recently said "For Russia it would be easier to deal with individual countries".

Of course it would. It would be much 'easier’ for Russia, to ‘deal’ with Texas. Than having to deal with the United States of America.
Smaller boys are so much easier to 'deal' with.

Divide and Rule

It is such a good job that little individual country England did not make a stand against Hitler in 1939 and that we are all now enjoying a united Europe under one dictator with full (army) employment, autobahns everywhere and an efficient industry and no undesirables nicking my tools and machinery.