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<blockquote data-quote="Two Tone" data-source="post: 3509394" data-attributes="member: 44728"><p>No, you are thinking perfectly logically, very intelligently and are quite right to raise this question. </p><p>I love it when people are really thinking properly and pose questions exactly like this.</p><p></p><p>Straw does help with the income and DS does reduce the amount of straw/acre you will bale.<strong> BUT: </strong></p><p></p><p>DS is obviously useful in taller crops, like Rape, Wheat, Rye and Winter Barley. Not so much in shorter Spring Barley and not at all in Peas & Beans.</p><p></p><p>Assuming a crop of wheat is 80 cm tall, a conventional header would cut it at about 11 cm from the ground so you will bales 69 cm of it. This 11 cm is also the height that the DS knife is set to leave the finished stubble at.</p><p></p><p>When using a DS, the Primary (Normal header) knife now cuts the wheat 9-15 cm above the DS knife. The straw that is in effect cut twice, we call the Dual straw.</p><p></p><p>So losing 9 cm of Dual straw from being baled is about 13% of the 69 cm of straw you would normally bale.</p><p>Losing 15 cm of Dual Straw from being baled is about 22% of the 69 cm of straw you would normally bale. You would only be at 15 cm Dual straw early in the morning and late at night as the Dew appears. That Dew works its way from the ground upwards as it appears and visa versa.</p><p></p><p>There is another very important point here. Inside a Combine, due to the threshing mechanism, moisture transfers from wet straw to the grain, making it wetter before it gets to the grain bin (tank). Keil University have proven that this will be between 0.6 and 1% more moisture. So there is a potential drying cost saving here too.</p><p></p><p><strong>Back to your question re loss of income of Straw:</strong></p><p>1. If you are a farmer baling your own straw for litter, you will bale 13% less straw. But this is dryer straw and the further up the stem it is, the more absorbent it is (due to the leaves). Yes, you could leave it a day or two to dry the lower straw out, but that lower straw will never absorb as much.</p><p></p><p>We have a chap called Bob who rents some buildings from us to keep beef cattle in. In 2013 when we first used DS, I was very worried that he would not have enough straw from the acreage we sell him, to litter his cattle. BUT by Spring 2014, he actually has straw left in his stack. This was because the straw he had was so much better than normal. He spent less time littering, because he needed less. He had also spent less time, baling and carting it.</p><p></p><p>2. If you are selling your straw behind the Combine, the baling Contractor is chuffed to bits because he can bale it right behind the Combine. He is charging by the bale and is travelling much faster and baling each bale (even) much quicker. So he is pleased. He earns more £/hour with his baler.</p><p></p><p>There are less bales to load onto lorries and the tonnage of straw /acre will be less. So there could be an income reduction here.</p><p></p><p>However, if that straw is being used for burning as a Renewable Energy source, these Energy companies have got very wise to moisture levels of the straw and realise that it takes a lot of energy from the (upper) drier part of the straw to dry the (lower) wetter (Dual?) straw enough before it will burn. So they will now want to pay you on Dry Matter. Therefore you are better off to leave the Dual straw on the field. What they are interested in is Calorific value/kg.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>DS works by keeping MOG (Material other than Grain) outside of the Combine. </p><p></p><p>On a Straw Walker Combine, it stops the Walkers from being the capacity limiting factor (grain tonnes/hour) and allows the sieves to work at maximum capacity, which now becomes the limiting factor.</p><p></p><p>However once the sieves have reached their maximum capacity, you lower the primary knife down enough until you start to see Walker losses appear again. Combines do need some straw to work efficiently. If you want to bale more straw, then keep lowering that primary knife until you start to see more Walker losses. A DS knife will happily cope with Dual Straw up to about 20 cm in wheat. Above and beyond that, it will struggle to clear the Double cut straw (Dual straw) fast enough from the knife in dense straw crops like wheat. With Rape you can happily cut up to just bellow the lowest pods. DS will happily cope with taller Rape Dual straw, because there are less stems/square metre here.</p><p></p><p>On a Rotary Combine, the same applies, but for the fact that there are no Walkers to limit capacity. But using a DS still seriously reduces MOG to allow the grain pan and sieves to work far more efficiently, therefore increasing capacity.</p><p></p><p>Rotary Combines are more efficient than Straw Walker Combines. But they do mangle the straw up far more, which can be a disadvantage. Particularly if that straw gets rained on before it is baled. It takes a lot longer to dry it out.</p><p>Which makes Rotary Combine more useful to you if you are chopping all your straw.</p><p></p><p><strong>So my argument is this:</strong></p><p>If you want to bale your straw, why not use a (cheaper to buy) Conventional Combine, <strong>then chose a smaller mid range version fitted with a DS header </strong>(which is still cheaper than a Rotary or the equivalent larger Conventional)<strong> and get the same output in capacity grain tonnes/hour for less purchase cost?</strong></p><p></p><p>Does that make sense?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Two Tone, post: 3509394, member: 44728"] No, you are thinking perfectly logically, very intelligently and are quite right to raise this question. I love it when people are really thinking properly and pose questions exactly like this. Straw does help with the income and DS does reduce the amount of straw/acre you will bale.[B] BUT: [/B] DS is obviously useful in taller crops, like Rape, Wheat, Rye and Winter Barley. Not so much in shorter Spring Barley and not at all in Peas & Beans. Assuming a crop of wheat is 80 cm tall, a conventional header would cut it at about 11 cm from the ground so you will bales 69 cm of it. This 11 cm is also the height that the DS knife is set to leave the finished stubble at. When using a DS, the Primary (Normal header) knife now cuts the wheat 9-15 cm above the DS knife. The straw that is in effect cut twice, we call the Dual straw. So losing 9 cm of Dual straw from being baled is about 13% of the 69 cm of straw you would normally bale. Losing 15 cm of Dual Straw from being baled is about 22% of the 69 cm of straw you would normally bale. You would only be at 15 cm Dual straw early in the morning and late at night as the Dew appears. That Dew works its way from the ground upwards as it appears and visa versa. There is another very important point here. Inside a Combine, due to the threshing mechanism, moisture transfers from wet straw to the grain, making it wetter before it gets to the grain bin (tank). Keil University have proven that this will be between 0.6 and 1% more moisture. So there is a potential drying cost saving here too. [B]Back to your question re loss of income of Straw:[/B] 1. If you are a farmer baling your own straw for litter, you will bale 13% less straw. But this is dryer straw and the further up the stem it is, the more absorbent it is (due to the leaves). Yes, you could leave it a day or two to dry the lower straw out, but that lower straw will never absorb as much. We have a chap called Bob who rents some buildings from us to keep beef cattle in. In 2013 when we first used DS, I was very worried that he would not have enough straw from the acreage we sell him, to litter his cattle. BUT by Spring 2014, he actually has straw left in his stack. This was because the straw he had was so much better than normal. He spent less time littering, because he needed less. He had also spent less time, baling and carting it. 2. If you are selling your straw behind the Combine, the baling Contractor is chuffed to bits because he can bale it right behind the Combine. He is charging by the bale and is travelling much faster and baling each bale (even) much quicker. So he is pleased. He earns more £/hour with his baler. There are less bales to load onto lorries and the tonnage of straw /acre will be less. So there could be an income reduction here. However, if that straw is being used for burning as a Renewable Energy source, these Energy companies have got very wise to moisture levels of the straw and realise that it takes a lot of energy from the (upper) drier part of the straw to dry the (lower) wetter (Dual?) straw enough before it will burn. So they will now want to pay you on Dry Matter. Therefore you are better off to leave the Dual straw on the field. What they are interested in is Calorific value/kg. DS works by keeping MOG (Material other than Grain) outside of the Combine. On a Straw Walker Combine, it stops the Walkers from being the capacity limiting factor (grain tonnes/hour) and allows the sieves to work at maximum capacity, which now becomes the limiting factor. However once the sieves have reached their maximum capacity, you lower the primary knife down enough until you start to see Walker losses appear again. Combines do need some straw to work efficiently. If you want to bale more straw, then keep lowering that primary knife until you start to see more Walker losses. A DS knife will happily cope with Dual Straw up to about 20 cm in wheat. Above and beyond that, it will struggle to clear the Double cut straw (Dual straw) fast enough from the knife in dense straw crops like wheat. With Rape you can happily cut up to just bellow the lowest pods. DS will happily cope with taller Rape Dual straw, because there are less stems/square metre here. On a Rotary Combine, the same applies, but for the fact that there are no Walkers to limit capacity. But using a DS still seriously reduces MOG to allow the grain pan and sieves to work far more efficiently, therefore increasing capacity. Rotary Combines are more efficient than Straw Walker Combines. But they do mangle the straw up far more, which can be a disadvantage. Particularly if that straw gets rained on before it is baled. It takes a lot longer to dry it out. Which makes Rotary Combine more useful to you if you are chopping all your straw. [B]So my argument is this:[/B] If you want to bale your straw, why not use a (cheaper to buy) Conventional Combine, [B]then chose a smaller mid range version fitted with a DS header [/B](which is still cheaper than a Rotary or the equivalent larger Conventional)[B] and get the same output in capacity grain tonnes/hour for less purchase cost?[/B] Does that make sense? [/QUOTE]
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