Primera Rams

[cheviot53]

Just put out a 5 and 6 sh today both have good mouths

 

[bluepower]

No one forces the hundreds of farmers to buy innovis rams , we can't all be crazy . Up until 10 yrs ago I used to buy BFL ram's @ £400-600 which if I was lucky would last through tupping , that was expensive

I agree that no one is forced to buy these rams I just think they are clever at marketing them. As to whether other peoples grass fed rams last then in my experience the answer is yes. Any ram that has not being pushed will be more fertile, mobile and should be longer lasting. BFL tups are renowned for being fragile, hence the free shovel ! I just think that there are better rams around at better value than Innovis bred ones. Sometimes when you buy something that costs a lot you have to convince yourself that it is better?

 

[CharcoalWally]

I have homebred Texels and Texel crosses here that will be heading out for their 6th, 7th and 8th tupping seasons all being well this year.

All here since birth and ran with the commercial lambs in their first year - have never had special treatment which includes not being fitted up for sale the way the Innovis tups I saw last year were. Even if it was on a largely forage diet, these tups were pretty porky, some of them.

My senior BFL sire , Ram sale purchased, fed for sale, blah blah blah, zzzz zzzz , will hopefully be heading out for his 5th tupping season.

Oh, it's a great life with sheep. ......

 

[hendrebc]

Innovis tups (and easyrams for that matter) might be expensive compared to other forage bred rams that arent marketed better but there is a problem buying from other sources. Not everyone who sells forage bred rams are telling the truth. Some just say they dont feed and are forage reared and are complete liars. I have bought a lot of suffolk and texel rams over the years that the seller has assured me were not pushed or fed on anything but grass and almost all of them were to some extent. When you confronted the breeder they would soon change their story and blame me for beong a bad stockman bit looking after them. One suffolk breeder who went on at me i showed up and i accused of being a liar in market cafe and he still avoids me on a tuesday in the fat lamb sale. He and everyone there knew i was right. About half of tjem would melt and die after a season the other half were very disapointing and only did 2 or 3 seasons. In the end i bought 2 easyram texels in 2013 and another in 2014nd havent looked back. All 3 are at work now as fit as the day they arrived. They worked out much cheaper than the rams that melted and dropped dead. I know there are genuine forage bred rams out there that arent from innovis or easyrams but they are very difficult to find if you dont know were to look. I didnt really believe that there were real forage bred rams out there until i joined TFF and spoke to some in here and i bet there are lots of farmers like i was who are fed up buying overfed crap that dies. Its no wonder they sell so well even if they look expensive

 

[cheviot53]

Every one has a different view on prices , for me a £1000 for a maternal ram would be my maximum . The sale of grass fed rams up here (McGowan ,porkenson ,logie durno ) all make good money

 

[cheviot53]

Easyram covers the ram for 2yrs and innovis until february the following year , this surely gives a buyer a little more confidence

 

[neilo]

No one forces the hundreds of farmers to buy innovis rams , we can't all be crazy . Up until 10 yrs ago I used to buy BFL ram's @ £400-600 which if I was lucky would last through tupping , that was expensive

As @bluepower has posted, all forage reared rams will last longer & melt less, not just those with a fancy badge. It’s the rearing management that makes that difference, not where they come from.

As to your question of why I think they’re expensive..... When Innovis started their on farm sales, they contracted a few breeders to supply them with forage reared rams to get numbers up. I was one of them.
I realised that it was never going to be a long term thing, just a stop gap until they had their own production fully on stream.
They came down and picked out 20 of my yearlings in late June/early July each year, which were always my ‘second draw’ rams as i’ve Always looked after long term, regular customers first. They took those rams to Aber to ‘look after them’ for a month or so, before putting them through their sale system. I was paid a flat rate for them, they’d take a fee for the ‘sale prep’, then the difference over that would be split.
My rams, sold under the Innovis banner, averaged around £900. Those same rams, bought directly from me, would have been £450. No difference in the rams, I stand behind mine too (as all reputable breeders would) and I have examined them to make sure their teeth, testicles & feet are OK (again, as all reputable breeders would), just I don’t have an MRCVS badge to show.

Are they expensive? Maybe not. Maybe I’m just too cheap...... personally though, I’d struggle to justify paying £700+ for a terminal sire ram. For a maternal ram, then yes I could justify it (and I do) but they have to live up to the expectation that the premium price brings.

Each to their own though. I guess we all value things differently.

 

[bluepower]

Innovis tups (and easyrams for that matter) might be expensive compared to other forage bred rams that arent marketed better but there is a problem buying from other sources. Not everyone who sells forage bred rams are telling the truth. Some just say they dont feed and are forage reared and are complete liars. I have bought a lot of suffolk and texel rams over the years that the seller has assured me were not pushed or fed on anything but grass and almost all of them were to some extent. When you confronted the breeder they would soon change their story and blame me for beong a bad stockman bit looking after them. One suffolk breeder who went on at me i showed up and i accused of being a liar in market cafe and he still avoids me on a tuesday in the fat lamb sale. He and everyone there knew i was right. About half of tjem would melt and die after a season the other half were very disapointing and only did 2 or 3 seasons. In the end i bought 2 easyram texels in 2013 and another in 2014nd havent looked back. All 3 are at work now as fit as the day they arrived. They worked out much cheaper than the rams that melted and dropped dead. I know there are genuine forage bred rams out there that arent from innovis or easyrams but they are very difficult to find if you dont know were to look. I didnt really believe that there were real forage bred rams out there until i joined TFF and spoke to some in here and i bet there are lots of farmers like i was who are fed up buying overfed crap that dies. Its no wonder they sell so well even if they look expensive

I agree with everything you say and think that people are slowly seeing the light regarding pumped up rams, and bulls for that matter. The grass fed rams I bought this season had the trough and bag test as soon as i got them home. They passed as they just stood and looked confused at me.As to how they look this time next year, time will tell as will their results on scanning day.

 

[Highcountryshepherd]

I was always taught by the old fellas that you pay to the value of the first 10 lambs sold (also calves ) for a tup or lamb can't go wrong sticking to that principal

 

[neilo]

I was always taught by the old fellas that you pay to the value of the first 10 lambs sold (also calves ) for a tup or lamb can't go wrong sticking to that principal

Definitely a good guide. I wish more would, £900 for a terminal sire ram would have been very nice this summer.

 

[farmer james]

I was always taught by the old fellas that you pay to the value of the first 10 lambs sold (also calves ) for a tup or lamb can't go wrong sticking to that principal

None round my way are willing to pay that much most struggle to get to the value of the first 5 lambs sold.
FJ

 

[Innovis Ltd]

I don't think they've 'dropped' the bar to that. I remember a talk several years ago, where the Innovis rep said they were only culling 10%.

Whilst we would love it to be higher, we currently only manage to get @46% of our ram lambs born alive sold as shearlings the following year. The 65% of ram lambs that go into winter drop down to 50% by May the following year with another 4% culled after all the sales have come to an end (late November). Would love not to have the leftovers but sheep unfortunately develop issues through the year which means that we will always have a proportion that we’re not happy to send out. The strongest rams are sold on-line and through on-farm sales in August/September. It is right to say that the rams we have available for sale right now are poorer quality (under our system) but are nevertheless sound rams in their working clothes and are a solid proposition for those wanting to try something new at a reduced price. Anything that isn’t good enough has, or will be, culled.

 

[neilo]

Whilst we would love it to be higher, we currently only manage to get @46% of our ram lambs born alive sold as shearlings the following year. The 65% of ram lambs that go into winter drop down to 50% by May the following year with another 4% culled after all the sales have come to an end (late November). Would love not to have the leftovers but sheep unfortunately develop issues through the year which means that we will always have a proportion that we’re not happy to send out. The strongest rams are sold on-line and through on-farm sales in August/September. It is right to say that the rams we have available for sale right now are poorer quality (under our system) but are nevertheless sound rams in their working clothes and are a solid proposition for those wanting to try something new at a reduced price. Anything that isn’t good enough has, or will be, culled.

Glad to hear it. As I said, it was your rep that gave that figure at a meeting a few years ago. He's no longer selling your sheep.

 

[ISCO]

Innovis tups (and easyrams for that matter) might be expensive compared to other forage bred rams that arent marketed better but there is a problem buying from other sources. Not everyone who sells forage bred rams are telling the truth. Some just say they dont feed and are forage reared and are complete liars. I have bought a lot of suffolk and texel rams over the years that the seller has assured me were not pushed or fed on anything but grass and almost all of them were to some extent. When you confronted the breeder they would soon change their story and blame me for beong a bad stockman bit looking after them. One suffolk breeder who went on at me i showed up and i accused of being a liar in market cafe and he still avoids me on a tuesday in the fat lamb sale. He and everyone there knew i was right. About half of tjem would melt and die after a season the other half were very disapointing and only did 2 or 3 seasons. In the end i bought 2 easyram texels in 2013 and another in 2014nd havent looked back. All 3 are at work now as fit as the day they arrived. They worked out much cheaper than the rams that melted and dropped dead. I know there are genuine forage bred rams out there that arent from innovis or easyrams but they are very difficult to find if you dont know were to look. I didnt really believe that there were real forage bred rams out there until i joined TFF and spoke to some in here and i bet there are lots of farmers like i was who are fed up buying overfed crap that dies. Its no wonder they sell so well even if they look expensive

Couldn't agree more with the above. We traditionally bought from Kelso where every breeder tells you they are fforage reared or only had a Little feed the month before. We bought rams last year from Kelso that melted and struggled to survive the winter whereas our Innovis and easyram rams maintained their condition. We have 6 easyram and Innovis rams and each one that has come did not know what cake in a trough was on arrival as I always try them just out of intrrest. Every Kelso tup I have ever bought new what a cake bag was.