Farmers 'experiment' with Zero Tillage...

Feldspar · Oct 7, 2015

DrWazzock said:
I grapple with sustainability issues everyday while also trying to make a living. I've given it years of thought and tried all sorts of things and I am gradually making progress. I am scientifically educated and don't consider myself to be a complete fool, yet the way the author of that article writes you would think he was the only one who knew anything, despite the fact he doesn't seem to have any practical experience whatsoever.

A note of caution though. I have seen worse run off on badly done zero till than on ploughed land due to compaction and lack of infiltration. its never quite a simple as people think when you are actually out there doing it.

I didn't post the article because I thought it particularly well written or informed. It was more just as a way to convey what the French government are planning. Will be interesting to see how they measure the changes.

DrWazzock · Oct 7, 2015

Feldspar said:
I didn't post the article because I thought it particularly written or informed. It was more just as a way to convey what the French government are planning. Will be interesting to see how they measure the changes.

It will, and you can bet it will involve a clipboard or two!

DrWazzock · Oct 7, 2015

I am still not convinced that the plough is the root of all evil when it comes to erosion and soil degradation. I've seen chopped straw float across our beet field during heavy rain when we experimented with no till beet. Ploughed and pressed and drill straight in gave far better infiltration and less erosion.

I have also found just as many worms in ploughed fields as no till fields. Just my simple findings. I welcome much of what no till offers, but it has to be done right.

dontknowanything · Oct 7, 2015

DrWazzock said:
I have also found just as many worms in ploughed fields as no till fields. Just my simple findings. I welcome much of what no till offers, but it has to be done right.

I'm fairly sure that most of the "my fields are full of worms now that I no till" is due to the fact that they were never really looked for in the old systems.

Richard III · Oct 7, 2015

dontknowanything said:
I'm fairly sure that most of the "my fields are full of worms now that I no till" is due to the fact that they were never really looked for in the old systems.

Can't agree with that at all, it's not just No Till though, it's about leaving plenty of trash on the surface and doing so for a number of years.

After 6 years of doing the above, the size and number of worm casts on the soil surface here is beyond anything you would see in a cultivated field.

DrWazzock said:
I am still not convinced that the plough is the root of all evil when it comes to erosion and soil degradation. I've seen chopped straw float across our beet field during heavy rain when we experimented with no till beet. Ploughed and pressed and drill straight in gave far better infiltration and less erosion.

I think the problem here is the number of years it can take to establish a good No Till soil, sometimes fields can go backwards before they go forwards, particularly anything that is slow to drain IMO.

Clive · Oct 7, 2015

dontknowanything said:
I'm fairly sure that most of the "my fields are full of worms now that I no till" is due to the fact that they were never really looked for in the old systems.

could be to some extent true I guess - however when I compare to locally cultivated similar soils we do have significantly more, also I see mach bigger ones these days, some are quite scary for a man that doesn't like snakes !!

dontknowanything · Oct 7, 2015

Richard III said:
Can't agree with that at all, it's not just No Till though, it's about leaving plenty of trash on the surface and doing so for a number of years.

After 6 years of doing the above, the size and number of worm casts on the soil surface here is beyond anything you would see in a cultivated field.

How many times have you seen someone claim a field to be full of worms after (and because of) a year of direct drilling?

I've heard it repeatedly

Feldspar · Oct 7, 2015

Clive said:
could be to some extent true I guess - however when I compare to locally cultivated similar soils we do have significantly more, also I see mach bigger ones these days, some are quite scary for a man that doesn't like snakes !!

You get more vertical burrowing earthworms with no-till (lumbricus terrestris) and they're the big ones.

Clive · Oct 7, 2015

dontknowanything said:
How many times have you seen someone claim a field to be full of worms after (and because of) a year of direct drilling?

I've heard it repeatedly

........................maybe they are all right ?

I actually think what made the single biggest difference here re worms was not renting potato land anymore - they use many chemicals that are genocode to worms I reckon and bash them with many, many fine cultivators

have taken on some land this autumn after potatoes and had to cultivate it, no sign of life to be seen in it whatsoever despite 15 years organic grass / beef pre the potato crop

SilliamWhale · Oct 7, 2015

Poor quality no till can be crap ie high disturbance, poor residue management, not feeding the soil with matter for the soil critters, not being mindful of wheelings and when not to drill, poorly considered rotation, badly maintained drill or poorly designed drill etc. It won't magic away just because you've drilled in one pass. The plough isn't the root of evil of course, but it doesn't help a lot of situations either.

But good quality no till coupled with a bit of planning and thinking time works very well. I've seen people doing various bits of lifting to get "air" in the soil and then pressing/rolling to consolidate the soil this week and quite frankly its a load of rubbish - the seed is only going in 1" deep and there's plenty of air at that point.

SilliamWhale · Oct 7, 2015

Clive said:
........................maybe they are all right ?

I actually think what made the single biggest difference here re worms was not renting potato land anymore - they use many chemicals that are genocode to worms I reckon and bash them with many, many fine cultivators

have taken on some land this autumn after potatoes and had to cultivate it, no sign of life to be seen in it whatsoever despite 15 years organic grass / beef pre the potato crop

I agree with you there. I found a combination of vydate/mocap/bedtilling and destoning was very hard on the ground. The first year was ok as the p and k excess could carry it along but the years after were crap as it had slumped.

dontknowanything · Oct 7, 2015

Clive said:
........................maybe they are all right ?

I actually think what made the single biggest difference here re worms was not renting potato land anymore - they use many chemicals that are genocode to worms I reckon and bash them with many, many fine cultivators

have taken on some land this autumn after potatoes and had to cultivate it, no sign of life to be seen in it whatsoever despite 15 years organic grass / beef pre the potato crop

Maybe.

But I bet most of them never looked for a worm before they started DD.

Richard III · Oct 7, 2015

Clive said:
have taken on some land this autumn after potatoes and had to cultivate it, no sign of life to be seen in it whatsoever despite 15 years organic grass / beef pre the potato crop

Quite a few distributor variety demonstrations seem to be done on land that also grows spuds, it is easy to tell as soon as you walk in the field, next to no worm casts at all.

SilliamWhale · Oct 7, 2015

SilliamWhale said:
Poor quality no till can be crap ie high disturbance, poor residue management, not feeding the soil with matter for the soil critters, not being mindful of wheelings and when not to drill, poorly considered rotation, badly maintained drill or poorly designed drill etc. It won't magic away just because you've drilled in one pass. The plough isn't the root of evil of course, but it doesn't help a lot of situations either.

But good quality no till coupled with a bit of planning and thinking time works very well. I've seen people doing various bits of lifting to get "air" in the soil and then pressing/rolling to consolidate the soil this week and quite frankly its a load of rubbish - the seed is only going in 1" deep and there's plenty of air at that point.

And furthermore - there are enough farmers on here now on all different soil types in all areas of the country owing the bank all sorts of different amounts of money to demonstrate no till is mainly about the attitude. If you want to make it work....

martian · Oct 7, 2015

Seagulls tell you a lot. It got to the stage with some of our fields that they wouldn't bother following the plough unless we were turning up an old meadow.

Wheatonrotty · Oct 7, 2015

A friend took on some ground that had been no tilled for a few years a couple of years ago. They plough everything every year and found that in their own ground the worms were a lot larger than the no tilled ground where there were a lot of very small worms in the top inch but nothing below that in what was described by his agronomist as a motorway! Just highlights that ploughing and cultivating done well and carefully can be better for the soil than badly done no till.

SilliamWhale · Oct 8, 2015

Wheatonrotty said:
A friend took on some ground that had been no tilled for a few years a couple of years ago. They plough everything every year and found that in their own ground the worms were a lot larger than the no tilled ground where there were a lot of very small worms in the top inch but nothing below that in what was described by his agronomist as a motorway! Just highlights that ploughing and cultivating done well and carefully can be better for the soil than badly done no till.

Yes on the best ground you probably can plough very year without a problem. I expect there is still some erosion and carbon loss but its a mining process which you could quite concievably continue for another generation or so on the best soils.

York · Oct 8, 2015

a client, continuous No till as it's pasture, never been tilled in any shape & form, said: we never have seen worms in our pastures. Unknown.
My reasoning: i have never seen such low S values in a soil sample, even in our "beach sand" soils they are higher.
York-Th.

SilliamWhale · Oct 8, 2015

Worms are indicators but not the be all and end all.

Am in right in thinking worms weren't native to the USA? I think in some places termites replace the role of the worm.

shakerator · Oct 8, 2015

SilliamWhale said:
Poor quality no till can be crap ie high disturbance, poor residue management, not feeding the soil with matter for the soil critters, not being mindful of wheelings and when not to drill, poorly considered rotation, badly maintained drill or poorly designed drill etc. It won't magic away just because you've drilled in one pass. The plough isn't the root of evil of course, but it doesn't help a lot of situations either.

But good quality no till coupled with a bit of planning and thinking time works very well. I've seen people doing various bits of lifting to get "air" in the soil and then pressing/rolling to consolidate the soil this week and quite frankly its a load of rubbish - the seed is only going in 1" deep and there's plenty of air at that point.

if your not stimulating bacteria earthworms might reduce at the expense of fungi?

Farmers 'experiment' with Zero Tillage...

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