The great global warming scam, worth a listen I think.

bovrill said:

I hope I've edited out the bit correctly.
I know from previous FWi discussions on the subject that we had broad agreement on things, with a slightly different conclusion on the human input (have you mellowed a bit on that? I suspect we've both come towards the centre ground a bit over the years!)

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No change in my belief from the FWi long debate that we are the prime suspect, but not yet found 100% guilty. I think we are becoming closer to the "beyond reasonable doubt" stage though.

bovrill said:

. And I can't see that CO2 is the culprit. It's a simple thing with provable, measurable, big changes over recent years which can be made out to be the bogeyman, and base all the scare tactics around.

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Did you check out the works of Fourrier, Tyndall and Arrhenius? They describe why increasing CO2 gives rise to higher temperatures, and as I said, nobody has been able to prove that it does not. I am not into scare tactics, and cannot go along with those who are absolutely certain that the whole global warming (I use the term because temperatures are increasing) is totally as a result of us burning fossil fuels.

Cowabunga said:

This bit of your post is replied to separately because it illustrates not what you think but that again there are alarmists and people who would have motives for manipulating people's opinions that will jump on any alarmist predictions going. It shows that any old rubbish can be said convincingly and a large percentage of the population will believe it. So called 'environmentalists' and the religious are particularly susceptible to suggestion and manipulation it seems to me, but nobody is immune.

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In 1956 M. King Hubbert, a geologist for Shell Oil, predicted the peaking of US Oil production would occur in the late 1960s.

Although derided by most in the industry he was correct. He was the first to assert that oil discovery, and therefore production, would follow a bell shaped curve over its life. After his success in forecasting the US peak, this analysis became known as the Hubbert’s Peak.

• The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s.
• 40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since.

World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive.

http://peakoilbarrel.com/what-is-peak-oil/

Old McDonald said:

I have never suggested that the original figures are in doubt, so why your first sentence?

I have questioned the statements by you and banjo that these figures have been altered, and asked you to provide both sets. Neither of you have done so.

Temperatures have continued to rise over the last 18 years. Published figures in each year have shown that the present temperature is marginally higher. As already pointed out to you in an early post. Also the fact that banjo's Ted Cruze link has him saying that temperatures have not increased by what he decided were a "significant" amount - his decision on what is significant.

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The original figures have been shown plotted and linked to in the video and in writing along with the modified plots in graphical form. If you want to trawl through daily figures for the last 80 years, be my guest and do it off your own bat and in your own time and don't expect others to jump to your tune. Look at the figures and graphs provided already for you and try denying any of it. Nobody can possibly deny that the figures have been tampered with, what they call 'adjusted'. Its the only way they get the present day graphs to show the warming as they want it to look. Some well funded people decide what they want to show and adjust/tamper with the figures until it agrees with them.
Its blatant. Its a disgrace. People swallow it hook line and sinker. I would say that people like you do, and you actually defend this manipulation for some reason. Is it because you think its for some 'greater good'?

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150112-did-snowball-earth-make-animals
I referred to the above earlier.
This is to show that co2 and green house gases can come first.
It's the excepted opinion that volcanic action of releasing co2 and greenhouse gases, over millions of years, broke the planet out a long term ice age. So it's not unpresidented to see temprature rises after co2 and greenhouse gases build up.

Dave645 said:

So it's not unpresidented to see temprature rises after co2 and greenhouse gases build up.

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The problem for you is that temperature just hasn't risen in line with some 'expert's' expectations. Hence their apparent need to tamper with historically collected data. To lower older temperature data and exaggerate more recent temperatures. To obliterate the 1930's hot period and the 30 year colder than average and lowering trend later in the 20thC. To now try and change the temperature record gathered since the 1998 spike in order to change the no-change conclusion to one that shows continuing warming. It took them longer than I would have expected to find a vaguely credible reason, that would be lapped up by the faithful, for doctoring figures gathered so recently in modern times without appearing to be blithering idiots.

Old McDonald said:

Why add the word anthropological? You cannot know for certain that we are causing the rising tempertures. We are, as I have posted several times, the likely cause, but not yet proven guilty.

I cannot answer your question, although suspect it is not.

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I used the word 'cos agw seems to be used as a handy shorthand description. I am ambivalent about its existence. I don't believe it is humanly possible to do much about it if it does exist. I am all in favour of reduction of use of fossil fuels as they are finite and it could be argued that they are too valuable as a chemical feedstock to be frittered away by burning them.

Here are the 2005 to 2016 annual mean temperatures (an average of the daily Max and Min temperatures for the whole of the calendar year) for my farm in Portugal. Obviously this is only one site so cannot possibly be considered as representative of anywhere else on the planet, but I thought some posters might be interested in the results. You have to take my Word for it that I have recorded the temperatures on a daily basis, except for a week in 2010 when I was in the UK for my son’s wedding and that week’s Max and Min were recorded for the week. If anyone cares to publish their own figures, or those of the nearest weather station I would like to see them.

2005 14.41ºC.

2006 15.00

2007 14.05

2008 14.03

2009 15.22

2010 15.75

2011 15.90

2012 15.33

2013 15.78

2014 16.09

2015 16.67

2016 16.63

The mean hás not risen every from the previous result, and it would be an alarming situation if this is happening anywhere, but the trend is obvious. The spike in 2006 was due to a hot summer. January mins had been down to minus 5. What I know from keeping daily records is that we are not experiencing higher daytime temperatures, but rather slightly warmer overnight minimums, both summer and winter. Again in the early years we experienced a few days of up to 39º (never reached 40 so far) but in recent years we have only rarely reached a Max of 36. A minimum of minus 0.6º on 31st Dec past was the first min below zero since 9th Feb 2015. In the early years we had temps of minus 6 on more than one occasion each winter and regular minus 4s and 5s.

As can be expected, I am willing to accept that there hás been global warming over the same period.

Cowabunga said:

The problem for you is that temperature just hasn't risen in line with some 'expert's' expectations. Hence their apparent need to tamper with historically collected data. To lower older temperature data and exaggerate more recent temperatures. To obliterate the 1930's hot period and the 30 year colder than average and lowering trend later in the 20thC. To now try and change the temperature record gathered since the 1998 spike in order to change the no-change conclusion to one that shows continuing warming. It took them longer than I would have expected to find a vaguely credible reason, that would be lapped up by the faithful, for doctoring figures gathered so recently in modern times without appearing to be blithering idiots.

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1,000,000% agree.

Never has the amount of CO2 released been greater along with all the other green house gases.

Power generation in China has polluted very large amounts of land & air for decades - worse by far than anything produced in the West.

Yet temperatures have not risen .. they've had to manipulate the data, again, to create an interpretted rise.

But regardless ... with all these "Carbon Taxes" in the West which have exported poor people's jobs on a massive scale ... there is still no admission they have made the pollution a LOT worse.

Cowabunga said:

The problem for you is that temperature just hasn't risen in line with some 'expert's' expectations. Hence their apparent need to tamper with historically collected data. To lower older temperature data and exaggerate more recent temperatures. To obliterate the 1930's hot period and the 30 year colder than average and lowering trend later in the 20thC. To now try and change the temperature record gathered since the 1998 spike in order to change the no-change conclusion to one that shows continuing warming. It took them longer than I would have expected to find a vaguely credible reason, that would be lapped up by the faithful, for doctoring figures gathered so recently in modern times without appearing to be blithering idiots.

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This is the crux of the issue how fast can we expect change, for me we have set it to max but we are only using a small heater in a big room. The only diffrence is we have no control of the heater and we are only guessing on the green house settings, previously temp changes took hundreds if not thousands of years to show, and we are also working against an ice age which we seem to get reminded about.
So a big room with a window open, the suns output doesn't vary massively only the effect of green house gases are having in trapping energy that would normally escape. So our heater is only so effective in forcing changes that normally take decades to see and hundreds of years to notice a trend.
Which I believe we are seeing, so for a supposed ice age any rise at all is not to be expected. What's debated is if you add more co2 and green house gases do you speed it up. On that I am not sure, as the sun only produces a set amount of energy the best calculations in the world are only guesses, the shear mass of the outer crust of the planet and water. Is so vast to see any over all change in as little as 10-20 years would seem to me a sign that things are heating up.....and quite fast!

Your side have manipulated data and shown it to the USA congress, they are in the mud as well. They are not past using data in favourable ways to try and make there point, for people who you think are on the right side that's a poor show.
If they have nothing to hide in the data why cannot you produce an unedited one showing this level of temps in a graph, your the ones saying all the ones we have are false, so show us one you can 100% guarantee is acurate, you will have to get it from out side your normal source as I do not trust theirs any more than you trust ours.
Back up your bluster with facts that's what your asking our side to do.
If the data shows a clear flat Line over all, then your right, if it shows a rise your not. Simple.....

Dave645 said:

Your side have manipulated data and shown it to the USA congress, they are in the mud as well. They are not past using data in favourable ways to try and make there point, for people who you think are on the right side that's a poor show.
If they have nothing to hide in the data why cannot you produce an unedited one showing this level of temps in a graph, your the ones saying all the ones we have are false, so show us one you can 100% guarantee is acurate, you will have to get it from out side your normal source as I do not trust theirs any more than you trust ours.
Back up your bluster with facts that's what your asking our side to do.
If the data shows a clear flat Line over all, then your right, if it shows a rise your not. Simple.....

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How many times have they been asked on this thread to produce such info? I am not going to guess and am not going to look it up, but I estimate about 6 people have asked them at least once. They refuse to do so, and just refer us back to very long videos.

By the way all their video links are false information. The truth has been manipulated and distorted. They are all telling lies, and we therefore should totally ignore everything their side says about it all. And they are all being paid by somebody who has a lot to lose, because they cannot permit it to be shown that CO2e emissions are the cause of global warming (which they all deny) otherwise they will all lose a lot of money. Obviously the temperature is rising faster than at any time in history over a shorter timescale than ever before.

I think that last paragraph more or less sums up what they have been saying to you, me and a few other posters for the last 330 posts. The difference is that some of us have actually gone out of our way to provide reasoned and rational information from a wide range of sources. All they do is churn out videos that none of us have the time to watch.

I am still not convinced that we ae totally to blame.

wanton dwarf said:

1,000,000% agree.

Never has the amount of CO2 released been greater along with all the other green house gases.

Power generation in China has polluted very large amounts of land & air for decades - worse by far than anything produced in the West.

Yet temperatures have not risen .. they've had to manipulate the data, again, to create an interpretted rise.

But regardless ... with all these "Carbon Taxes" in the West which have exported poor people's jobs on a massive scale ... there is still no admission they have made the pollution a LOT worse.

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I would not trust there data over everyone's else's, if I was going to trust any data it would be from someone admitting we have a problem, not people saying there isn't, if I had to put my family's well being at risk, Which you could be if their wrong.

Old McDonald said:

How many times have they been asked on this thread to produce such info? I am not going to guess and am not going to look it up, but I estimate about 6 people have asked them at least once. They refuse to do so, and just refer us back to very long videos.

By the way all their video links are false information. The truth has been manipulated and distorted. They are all telling lies, and we therefore should totally ignore everything their side says about it all. And they are all being paid by somebody who has a lot to lose, because they cannot permit it to be shown that CO2e emissions are the cause of global warming (which they all deny) otherwise they will all lose a lot of money. Obviously the temperature is rising faster than at any time in history over a shorter timescale than ever before.

I think that last paragraph more or less sums up what they have been saying to you, me and a few other posters for the last 330 posts. The difference is that some of us have actually gone out of our way to provide reasoned and rational information from a wide range of sources. All they do is churn out videos that none of us have the time to watch.

I am still not convinced that we ae totally to blame.

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I love the way you finally use the words "their side" and claim that the actually measured data, which is not in dispute by the actual scientists who admit to 'adjusting' the data for their interpretation, is false information.
By the way, I have no 'side'. I'm a grown-up who looks at the evidence and whether it is manipulated/adjusted/distorted or not and if so, whether that is justified by science.

Dave645 said:

I would not trust there data over everyone's else's, if I was going to trust any data it would be from someone admitting we have a problem, not people saying there isn't, if I had to put my family's well being at risk, Which you could be if their wrong.

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I trust nobody. I certainly don't trust the alarmists who are serial data l manipulaters. Your family's wellbeing is at risk for every second of every day, from far more pressing risks than a slight warming of the global climate which will generally help grow more food from less and stop them starving from crop failures due to global cooling.

Old McDonald said:

Here are the 2005 to 2016 annual mean temperatures (an average of the daily Max and Min temperatures for the whole of the calendar year) for my farm in Portugal. Obviously this is only one site so cannot possibly be considered as representative of anywhere else on the planet, but I thought some posters might be interested in the results. You have to take my Word for it that I have recorded the temperatures on a daily basis, except for a week in 2010 when I was in the UK for my son’s wedding and that week’s Max and Min were recorded for the week. If anyone cares to publish their own figures, or those of the nearest weather station I would like to see them.

2005 14.41ºC.

2006 15.00

2007 14.05

2008 14.03

2009 15.22

2010 15.75

2011 15.90

2012 15.33

2013 15.78

2014 16.09

2015 16.67

2016 16.63

The mean hás not risen every from the previous result, and it would be an alarming situation if this is happening anywhere, but the trend is obvious. The spike in 2006 was due to a hot summer. January mins had been down to minus 5. What I know from keeping daily records is that we are not experiencing higher daytime temperatures, but rather slightly warmer overnight minimums, both summer and winter. Again in the early years we experienced a few days of up to 39º (never reached 40 so far) but in recent years we have only rarely reached a Max of 36. A minimum of minus 0.6º on 31st Dec past was the first min below zero since 9th Feb 2015. In the early years we had temps of minus 6 on more than one occasion each winter and regular minus 4s and 5s.

As can be expected, I am willing to accept that there hás been global warming over the same period.

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In ten years your farm will be frizzled, so if I were you I would be looking for cooler climes. Maybe try the Antarctic.

Cowabunga said:

I love the way you finally use the words "their side" and claim that the actually measured data, which is not in dispute by the actual scientists who admit to 'adjusting' the data for their interpretation, is false information.
By the way, I have no 'side'. I'm a grown-up who looks at the evidence and whether it is manipulated/adjusted/distorted or not and if so, whether that is justified by science.

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The expression "their side" is a reference to the stance taken by you, banjo and one or two other people on this particular thread supporting those committed denialists whose videos you have posted. Since you support them, there is no other way to put it than to say you are on "their" side.

I have told you before, I am not claiming, and never have claimed, that the original data is false information. This is the third occasion you have said I claim it to be false. Why?

Cowabunga said:

I trust nobody. I certainly don't trust the alarmists who are serial data l manipulaters. Your family's wellbeing is at risk for every second of every day, from far more pressing risks than a slight warming of the global climate which will generally help grow more food from less and stop them starving from crop failures due to global cooling.

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You got to be joking now..... it a sad way to live not trusting anyone.
I find the scam side of this argument, comes down to saying all data that's disagree with, is fudged, or is an out and out lie.
To the point your willing to disregard any data from any source, that you don't agree with. No one on the scam team has produced one shred of evidence to show any current world policy's are wrong, if they had clear cut data they would use it, the fact they don't is why I cannot believe them.

And the fact that observable evidence, supports globle warming.
Even the scam graphs show upward trends, you just think that because you don't want to believe it makes it so, if we see a 0.1 degree rise in 10 years we are


Let's take this graph your scammers use one similar at 18 mins in their video On page 4 of this thread, it clearly shows a rise in tempratures, but they say it's all natural. The model data is clearly wrong, but the actual trend is clear. It's a half degree rise in tempratures. So the model correctly predicted a rise but not the magnitude for a model produced in the 1990's I don't think they get it half bad. It backs up what my family has seem over the long time frame of the last 120 years.
Then look at a longer graph.


You also see a trend get them to put the scam vertion of that up. Let's see some data supporting your position, not just words and videos.
You cannot get people to believe you by just saying all data that shows globle warming is a lie, and it's all now been altered at the source and fudged. That is just imposable to do. You cannot tell me only the scam supporters have the only un corrupted data....and that when they told everyone they did nothing about it.

No scientist alive now can correctly predict globle temprature change, they can say up or down but by not by what amount, your scam supporters don't even predict a fall in globle tempratures, they have less clue than the people supporting globle warming. And what's worse they have no plan on how to stop it because in their eyes it's all natural. It's the no plan plan.