Introducing Cambridge Sheep Genes to improve Lambing %

Coximus · Feb 14, 2017

As the title says - Im rather happy with where my now closed flock is and is going inn terms of health, genetics, wool / growth etc but Im lambing around 150-180%, with the main varying factor being the toughness of winter, and a higher than ideal number of singles - I'd ideally cull these and intend to, retaining only twin bearers and their lambs - however It was suggested to me by someone keeping Easycares that Cambridge sheep could provide me with a % boost - they crossed Cambridge into their poorest performing group of EC's and then bred them back to easycare going forward - and found a sharp uplift - half the number of singles and a few triplets as well (all reared by mother). They didnt cull these as they now had genetics for a higher %, however these genetics were different from the other twin bearing group so should widen the lambing % gene pool.

Would this work, or are their any massive issues to watch out for with Cambridge sheep?

Yale · Feb 14, 2017

@neilo

Man_in_black · Feb 14, 2017

I very nearly bought some Cambridge last year (was virtually in the truck when family issues stopped me)

Can't comment on breed but the society man is a very approachable chap, very easy to chat to & will see you right. I have his details if you wanna PM.

Have you considered lleyn?? Not quite as prolific (a good thing most say) easier to source, and keep that all important white face!!!

spin cycle · Feb 14, 2017

any other canidates...llyen or british milksheep?...or bfl?

Coximus · Feb 14, 2017

bfl - nope, I like my animals to be cast iron, long lived and meaty with no need for feed.
Milksheep? Wouldnt know where to start?
Lleyn, I have a few sheep with lleyn genetics in, and theyre not bad, but personally I've found them to be less than great when on poorer ground - an honest sheep IMO they respond well to good grass, but lots of rented land is utter shite, its green, but nothing in it, which I find Lleyn seem to be more sensitive to.

Man_in_black · Feb 14, 2017

Coximus said:
bfl - nope, I like my animals to be cast iron, long lived and meaty with no need for feed.
Milksheep? Wouldnt know where to start?
Lleyn, I have a few sheep with lleyn genetics in, and theyre not bad, but personally I've found them to be less than great when on poorer ground - an honest sheep IMO they respond well to good grass, but lots of rented land is utter shite, its green, but nothing in it, which I find Lleyn seem to be more sensitive to.

Lleyn have been own worse enemy in last 10 years...popularity explosion has meant that there is some utter shite out there. But if you get the right type (by that I mean one that suits your circumstances) then I think you're hard pressed to find a better maternal ewe capable of self replacing.

I keep mine on rented ground, I'm soil analysing soon but it's crappy PP that hasn't seen anything (apart from sheep poo!!) for at least 60 years. All mine were condition 3-3.5 at tupping and scanned at 197%. There is absolute gold quality within the breed. It's just finding them.

Coximus · Feb 14, 2017

I'd be willing to look at yours and try a tup if your interested?
Sounds like your ground is similar to my rented ground. I've used Swale and Heb and good tex genetics to get sheep that hold condition well on bad ground, but its cost me some body shape and lambing % in selecting for the disease and fcr traits.

I agree alot of crap about, went to view some LLeyn and the number with foot rot from a "leading breeder" was shocking and dismissed with "thats Sheep for you"
They couldnt understand my lack of interest in their 700 tups.

Man_in_black · Feb 14, 2017

Coximus said:
I'd be willing to look at yours and try a tup if your interested?
Sounds like your ground is similar to my rented ground. I've used Swale and Heb and good tex genetics to get sheep that hold condition well on bad ground, but its cost me some body shape and lambing % in selecting for the disease and fcr traits.

I agree alot of crap about, went to view some LLeyn and the number with foot rot from a "leading breeder" was shocking and dismissed with "thats Sheep for you"
They couldnt understand my lack of interest in their 700 tups.

PM sent

yellowbelly · Feb 14, 2017

Coximus said:
are their any massive issues to watch out for with Cambridge sheep?

Litters of lambs!

To be fair it's a hell of a long time since I saw any. Hopefully those crazy multiple birth genes have been tempered a bit by now.

Man_in_black · Feb 14, 2017

yellowbelly said:
Litters of lambs!

To be fair it's a hell of a long time since I saw any. Hopefully those crazy multiple birth genes have been tempered a bit by now.

From talking to secretary last year, yes they have attempted to address the likes of 5 & 6 lambs. As a society they don't partake in showing etc, focusing on commercial traits, good mothers with high milk yields. That said they still average 230% (approx)

MJT · Feb 14, 2017

Would sheep with the inverdale gene (ie aberdales) be of any use to you ?

A sheep with the gene could increase percentage by Upto 60%. You will need to carefully manage your flock though as inverdale on inverdale can cause some infertility .

neilo · Feb 14, 2017

Yale said:
@neilo

We had a few, about 50 pure females at one time, scanning at around 300%. Biggest litter we had was a seven, and only lost one. I certainly wouldn't advocate running purse though, unless you want a hobby.
We had them (bought at a good price) to breed crossbred females from, using a Suffolk at the time

. We moved on though, later using Cambridge tups over various ewe breeds, to leave a prolific female. It was said at the time (early/mid-90's) that you'd put half a lamb on your lambing percentage, which was generally true, but a bit variable. More work on genomic testing has been done since, and I see they are now offering tested Rams with various genetic variations available, and various corresponding uplifts in lambing %age.

The Cambridge came about from a Uni trial where they took hyper-prolific sheep from several breeds and crisscrossed them. The main breeds in the makeup were Llanwenog, Clun and Lleyn IIRC. As such, they suffered from the Clun's problem of very fat docks before they gained much flesh over the loin. A Texel over them was a magic cross (the CamTex) to sort that out.
Our Texel flock, which we ran up until 2006, and who our current Highlander flock is mostly bred up from, was 7/8 & 15/16 Texel, bred from those original Cambridge crosses. Every Texel ram we bought was top 10% ebv's for scan weight & muscle depth, from SRS flocks only and ALWAYS a single, to try to reduce prolificacy slightly. However, we still scanned, after negatively flushing, at 220-230% every year. By that stage, the Cambridge blood was very dilute and only making up a small proportion of the flock's genetics, but still clearly throwing the numbers out.
Don't know if that helps any, but that's my experience of them.

Incidentally, one of the prolificacy genes identified in the Cambridge breed, is the GDF9 mutation. IIRC @easyram1 has been multiplying up that same gene in some of his NZ Texels. Could that be another avenue to consider (although I suspect a Cambridge ram would be a fraction of the price

), without quite as much carcass sacrifice?

Sheep92 · Feb 14, 2017

Is there much belclare sheep of there? A lot of farms in ireland have introduced belclare into their flocks to increase prolificy and are getting good results

MRT · Feb 14, 2017

Are you going to lift your margins by lifting % from 180% though? Whats lamb mortality?

Sandpit Farm · Feb 14, 2017

neilo said:
We had a few, about 50 pure females at one time, scanning at around 300%. Biggest litter we had was a seven, and only lost one. I certainly wouldn't advocate running purse though, unless you want a hobby.
We had them (bought at a good price) to breed crossbred females from, using a Suffolk at the time. We moved on though, later using Cambridge tups over various ewe breeds, to leave a prolific female. It was said at the time (early/mid-90's) that you'd put half a lamb on your lambing percentage, which was generally true, but a bit variable. More work on genomic testing has been done since, and I see they are now offering tested Rams with various genetic variations available, and various corresponding uplifts in lambing %age.

The Cambridge came about from a Uni trial where they took hyper-prolific sheep from several breeds and crisscrossed them. The main breeds in the makeup were Llanwenog, Clun and Lleyn IIRC. As such, they suffered from the Clun's problem of very fat docks before they gained much flesh over the loin. A Texel over them was a magic cross (the CamTex) to sort that out.
Our Texel flock, which we ran up until 2006, and who our current Highlander flock is mostly bred up from, was 7/8 & 15/16 Texel, bred from those original Cambridge crosses. Every Texel ram we bought was top 10% ebv's for scan weight & muscle depth, from SRS flocks only and ALWAYS a single, to try to reduce prolificacy slightly. However, we still scanned, after negatively flushing, at 220-230% every year. By that stage, the Cambridge blood was very dilute and only making up a small proportion of the flock's genetics, but still clearly throwing the numbers out.
Don't know if that helps any, but that's my experience of them.

Incidentally, one of the prolificacy genes identified in the Cambridge breed, is the GDF9 mutation. IIRC @easyram1 has been multiplying up that same gene in some of his NZ Texels. Could that be another avenue to consider (although I suspect a Cambridge ram would be a fraction of the price), without quite as much carcass sacrifice?

Is there somewhere you can PCR test for GDF9? There are hyperprolific strains of Roussin that lamb at close to 300%.

Woolless · Feb 15, 2017

I have a small family of Easycares which I suspect carry some sort of prolificacy gene. The ewe from whom they all descend has just been scanned for quads rising 10 years old. Wouldn't want a whole flock but they also carry myomax and go on forever, so a useful combination.

neilo · Feb 15, 2017

Sandpit Farm said:
Is there somewhere you can PCR test for GDF9? There are hyperprolific strains of Roussin that lamb at close to 300%.

@NZDan ?

Pfizer do the test in NZ IIRC. I don't know if there's anywhere else.

Funnily enough, I first came across Roussins in the mid-90's, when some of the Cambridge breeders were discussing intergressing (I think that's the word) them into the breed, to improve confirmation without knocking prolificacy too much. I don't know if it ever happened. Amazing how long some of these 'new' wonder breeds have been about without talking off.....

Frank-the-Wool · Feb 15, 2017

Why do you want to make so much extra work?
Sheep over the next few years will be difficult to make a profit from and increasing prolificacy by using what is a poor conformation and not particularly hardy sheep makes no sense at all.

A sheep has two teats and while occasionally will successfully rear 3 lambs but more often than not the extra care and feed requirements outweigh much benefit.
Feeding lambs on powdered milk is expensive and losses can be high.

Having a lambing % of 150 - 180 providing there are low numbers of triplets looks to me to be as ideal as you can get and will mean you can operate a low input (grass) system.

neilo · Feb 15, 2017

Frank-the-Wool said:
Why do you want to make so much extra work?
Sheep over the next few years will be difficult to make a profit from and increasing prolificacy by using what is a poor conformation and not particularly hardy sheep makes no sense at all.

A sheep has two teats and while occasionally will successfully rear 3 lambs but more often than not the extra care and feed requirements outweigh much benefit.
Feeding lambs on powdered milk is expensive and losses can be high.

Having a lambing % of 150 - 180 providing there are low numbers of triplets looks to me to be as ideal as you can get and will mean you can operate a low input (grass) system.

To be fair, the Cambridge is made up of traditional upland breeds, and is fairly hardy IME. Obviously giving birth to litters doesn't make some of those lambs particularly hardy at birth, but as a breed it's not their worst point by any means.
I have always found pure Cambridge sheep to be very long lived. I still use pure rams as teasers and they rarely last less than 7 years in almost constant use from June to January.

I would agree that 180% gives more chances of making something from a simple low input system, but I think 150% leaves some scope for improvement, unless you have access to particularly cheap ground. The Cambridge Society is now offering DNA tested rams, which means that you can select for smaller jumps in prolificacy and avoid the hyperprolific lines if you wish. I have attached a copy of the info sheet on DNA testing that I picked up at Malvern in the summer.

Sandpit Farm · Feb 15, 2017

neilo said:
@NZDan ?

Pfizer do the test in NZ IIRC. I don't know if there's anywhere else.

Funnily enough, I first came across Roussins in the mid-90's, when some of the Cambridge breeders were discussing intergressing (I think that's the word) them into the breed, to improve confirmation without knocking prolificacy too much. I don't know if it ever happened. Amazing how long some of these 'new' wonder breeds have been about without talking off.....

Oh I know why! It's not to do with the sheep

9 breeders will be performance recording from this year and that accounts for about half of the population (as they are larger flocks). It's getting there slowly.

Introducing Cambridge Sheep Genes to improve Lambing %

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