Farm open day with No-till Bill

Will Blackburn · Mar 27, 2014

Joe Boy said:
Two things worries me about gm. It moves the profit and control from growing food to the developer of the technology rather than the farmer.

Not being able to produce your own seed exposes the farmer to more market volatility. The farmer just gets the difference between the seed in and the seeds out.

Although I'm no expert as I understand it the technology of inserting a desired trait into a plant is not that precise in that many other traits and regulatory elements of the donor plant will also be inserted into the host with little knowledge of the side effects. I'm not saying there are problems relating to this in current GM crops, just that the technology is in its infancy.

GM technology is far to complicated for most of us to understand the details and likely repercussions of, so unless your a plant pathologist and not on Monsanto's pay role, having a really strong view either way seems a bit daft to me as most of us don't really know what we are talking about.

You just have a hunch, either you think it's the answer to all our problems or it's our next problem.

I think the current line up of GM crops would not be helpful but that the technology could be used for the good of farmers and consumers in the future, but only if varieties are developed with this reason in mind. If left to pure economics (which it will be) the crops that will be developed will be designed to give the highest yield in £ to whoever has put the investment in to create them.

Your lack of enthusiasm for GM seems to stem from lack of understanding of the processes involved in their production. I think you probably have just as much understanding of conventional breeding if you see it as precise and GM as more random. Commercial GM crops must have been around 20 years, and the regulation surrounding the industry is well developed as to what is suitable material to insert into crop DNA.

The funny thing is that the economics of crop growing already reflect GM as the main exporting nations use them, they benefit from improved margins, while we get lower prices without the lower growing costs.

The seed suppliers charge a premium for GM, but if this exceeds more than 1/3 of the net benefit then farmers turn back to conventional, so you can see there is a profit for both sides.

Hartwig · Mar 27, 2014

As far as I know GM-free soybeans get a good premium on market as they`re glyphosate-free grown which is a clearly measurable specification by ppm glyphosate/AMPA in the seed.
Farerms with sick animals are willing to pay this higher price.
GM-soybeans from south-america are treated with up to 20 ltrs. glypho during growing season because of less and less effect on the weeds.
Don`t know how much more the growers get for GM-free soybeans, maybe the higher price comes from more costs for separate storing and hauling ?

Elmsted · Mar 27, 2014

Hartwig said:
As far as I know GM-free soybeans get a good premium on market as they`re glyphosate-free grown which is a clearly measurable specification by ppm glyphosate/AMPA in the seed.
Farerms with sick animals are willing to pay this higher price.
GM-soybeans from south-america are treated with up to 20 ltrs. glypho during growing season because of less and less effect on the weeds.
Don`t know how much more the growers get for GM-free soybeans, maybe the higher price comes from more costs for separate storing and hauling ?

Hartwig. I have seldom read more inaccurate figures. 20 litres per hectare is wrong and might be a typo. Please do find a location that uses maize or transports it that does not have an element of GM. Hence the global agreement at as I remember 2% contamination.

JAC

Hartwig · Mar 27, 2014

Stephen, contamination is clearly the problem for GM-free products, which seems more a political than a physical problem - it`s not the problem for glyphosate-free products as ppm are still rediculous in this % contamination I guess !?

I read the 20 ltrs. anywhere, IIRC it was 3 applications with 6-7 ltrs. - it`s so cheap and makes management and agronomy fool-proof easy in big operations. I was on a farmwalk here 4 weeks ago and the agronomist recommended 5 ltrs. glyphosate on a visually bare soil just to get rid of some small cranesbill because the farmer wanted beets there in min-till - when I moaned about that practice the agronomist said that glypho is so cheap that it is not worth the risk to reduce or even leave it for some surviving weeds in the beets !?! So, it`s not that far away as south-america seems.....

But you`re a producer of GM- and glyphosate-free soybeans I guess - how is the market for that stuff compared to imported soya ?? Along the danube river has developed a reasonable industry of home-grown soybeans, hasn`t it ?? Austria and Bavaria seems to be major buyers there as they can just ship it on the river. Correct me if I`m wrong, you`re the local actor there.

Danube soybeans are far too expensive here as they need 1000km on the road where imported soybeans just float into our harbours. But I have some lifestock-farmers here locally that want my faba-beans for feed to minimise soybeans in their ratio because of high ppm glyphosate. Sadly they don`t offer me a premium yet, but at least I have demand for my beans which is usually very low from merchants here as it`s a unusual crop.

Baling Hay · Mar 27, 2014

Here is a study that found pesticides are seriously damaging to worm populations and size of worms:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...cedaily+(Latest+Science+News+--+ScienceDaily)

Robigus · Mar 27, 2014

Steakeater said:
Here is a study that found pesticides are seriously damaging to worm populations and size of worms:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140325113232.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed: sciencedaily (Latest Science News -- ScienceDaily)

Pesticides can definitely effect worms, some of them are designed specifically to do that.

The trouble with the trial that you quote is that they took only two samples, one from a conventional field and one from an organic field. They then tested then against one criteria - Opus contamination. Why were many more samples not taken? Why were many more criteria not considered? As quoted it is a deeply flawed analysis, I wonder who paid for it?

martian · Mar 28, 2014

As quoted, I agree that it does sound flawed. I am always suspicious when they take clods of soil into the lab. Interesting nonetheless...

Elmsted · Mar 28, 2014

Hartwig said:
Stephen, contamination is clearly the problem for GM-free products, which seems more a political than a physical problem - it`s not the problem for glyphosate-free products as ppm are still rediculous in this % contamination I guess !?
. IIRC it was 3 applications with 6-7 ltrs. - it`s so cheap and makes management and agronomy fool-proof easy in big operations. I was on a farmwalk here 4 weeks ago and the agronomist recommended 5 ltrs. glyphosate on a visually bare soil just to get rid of some small cranesbill because the farmer wanted beets there in min-till - when I moaned about that practice the agronomist said that glypho is so cheap that it is not worth the risk to reduce or even leave it for some surviving weeds in the beets !?! So, it`s not that far away as south-america seems.....

But you`re a producer of GM- and glyphosate-free soybeans I guess - how is the market for that stuff compared to imported soya ?? .

Danube soybeans are far too expensive here as they need 1000km on the road where imported soybeans just float into our harbours. But I have some lifestock-farmers here locally that want my faba-beans for feed to minimise soybeans in their ratio because of high ppm glyphosate. Sadly they don`t offer me a premium yet, but at least I have demand for my beans which is usually very low from merchants here as it`s a unusual crop.

Hartwig I have removed some of your post to make it clearer. It is impractical to legally declare a commodity 100% free of crop with a trait.
As regards an agronomist within the EU as Germany is writing a recommendation to exceed the dose rate it would not I suggest stand up as being allowed within England.

We in Romania upon accession to the EU are not allowed to grow crops with traits any longer in commercial terms. Which in my view is stupid. Clearly as one moves around the country they are being grown from home saved seed. That covers, Soya,Potatoes,Maize.

Jim Bullock · Mar 29, 2014

Did anybody go to the meeting in London on the 27th when I understood there was going to be a discussion on how we (no-tillers) were all going to go forward. I didn't go as I had another meeting which I simply couldn't miss.!

The Ruminant · Mar 29, 2014

Jim Bullock said:
Did anybody go to the meeting in London on the 27th when I understood there was going to be a discussion on how we were all going to go forward. I didn't go as I had a planning application in front of our local planners which I simply couldn't miss.!

The 'Breakthrough Capitalism' meeting?
I went. An interesting evening and the answer is no-till and mob grazing

Baling Hay · Mar 29, 2014

The Ruminant said:
The 'Breakthrough Capitalism' meeting?
I went. An interesting evening and the answer is no-till and mob grazing

It is a shame that these meetings couldn't be videoed and put on youtube!

martian · Mar 30, 2014

Yes, there was a collection of the usual suspects from on here at the 'Breakthrough Capitalism' meeting. We listened to an interesting lineup of Dwayne Beck, Frederic Thomas, No-till Bill, Stephen Briggs, the CEO of the Savory Institute whose name escapes me and one or two others talking about the agricultural revolution which the world is about to witness (or is witnessing), which, as The Ruminant neatly pointed out, is: no-till and mob grazing.

What wasn't quite so clear is: what was really going on? I got the impression that Volans, who organised the evening, were looking at using these techniques to restore degraded farmland round the world with a view to saving the capitalist system, I mean saving the world by feeding people and locking up all the spare carbon dioxide in the soil worldwide. Which is, of course marvellous, but rather mystifying. I imagined that there was a sinister bloke, Mr Moneybags, watching through a secret window, stroking a evil white cat and smiling enigmatically. But all the people I talked to were delightful and enthusiastic about everything. I just couldn't see what they were going to do about it.

Anybody else got a clue?

martian · Mar 30, 2014

Steakeater said:
It is a shame that these meetings couldn't be videoed and put on youtube!

they did record the whole thing, but I don't know if it will end up on youtube or not

marco · Mar 30, 2014

martian said:
they did record the whole thing, but I don't know if it will end up on youtube or not

How do you/anyone find out about and get invited to these events? That was an impressive lineup. Is there a report of the day anywhere online?

martian · Mar 30, 2014

One of the benefits of belonging to BASE UK...

Dockers · Mar 30, 2014

Sorry " MOB " fans. It is just not going to happen that way ! Even No Till Bill said farm profitability is the main priority. Wheat on wheat on wheat !!!!! ( tin hat on now! )

Jim Bullock · Mar 30, 2014

Dockers said:
Sorry " MOB " fans. It is just not going to happen that way ! Even No Till Bill said farm profitability is the main priority. Wheat on wheat on wheat !!!!! ( tin hat on now! )

We haven't grown a single break crop for the last two seasons (due to weather) yet we have had two of our most profitable years so I suspect that says it all!

Feldspar · Mar 30, 2014

Jim Bullock said:
We haven't grown a single break crop for the last two seasons (due to weather) yet we have had two of our most profitable years so I suspect that says it all!

I suppose the question is for how long will that continue? Certainly beans for us are a great way to not clean up the fields, often damage the soil and lose money, so no break crops would be great in my book.

SilliamWhale · Mar 30, 2014

The Ruminant said:
The 'Breakthrough Capitalism' meeting?
I went. An interesting evening and the answer is no-till and mob grazing

I love you tom.

Was Dwayne beck in the uk?

The Ruminant · Mar 30, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
I love you tom.
Was Dwayne beck in the uk?

My Wife says I'm not allowed to love you back. Sorry!

Yes, Dwayne was amongst the panelists. Kirk Gadzia was in the audience, Jim Howells was there too, supporting Daniela (CEO of the Savory Institute).

The great and the good of soil health. Oh, and me and Martian

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