Do Scottish suckler farmers need support??? Here are the figures

CharcoalWally · Jan 19, 2018

M-J-G said:
Simplistic mind, (anyone on here who knows me in person will be amused by that ) .

It did make me laugh when I read this! !

But then I knew you would know I was laughing. ...

lazy farmer · Jan 19, 2018

CharcoalWally said:
Oh dear oh dear.

Some of the greatest thinkers see their subject in the simplest of terms. That's what makes them great thinkers. They strip away all the unnecessary fuss and clutter that clogs up poor performing businesses, and leave themselves with the relevant points that allow an operation to perform more streamlined.

@M-J-G 's post was a fine example of this, and of how his mind works. It's been my pleasure to be in his company at his workplace many times, and every time I'm struck by how his overview of his operation is completely geared towards simplifying of labour for most efficient use of time. It's impressive.

Fair warning Boss. Choose your company with great care on here.

You will receive a lot of advice on here.

A lot may be nonsense. A little might make a bit of sense if you can apply it to your own circumstances. Bur there will occasionally be a few nuggets lying in the slurry.

Even if you don't think somebody's advice doesn't mirror your game plan, smart people are always worth listening to, because they get you thinking about your own stuff.

You just have to work out who they are.

who are shriekback?

M-J-G · Jan 19, 2018

I was in a part of north west Scotland today that is about as poor and bleak as many would dream of.
I spoke to a few guys who are saying that without payments their areas will be uninhibited.

Many I'm sure will agree, myself included!

They also said that they have no idea what those with good land need payments for?

M-J-G · Jan 19, 2018

CharcoalWally said:
It did make me laugh when I read this! !

But then I knew you would know I was laughing. ...

Simple maybe, simplistic not so much

CharcoalWally · Jan 20, 2018

lazy farmer said:
who are shriekback?

They were a bunch of horrendously trendy, but fairly obscure Londoners who were movers and shakers on the early 80's post pop -funk fall out. They played an unusual mix of dance and funk grooves that mixed a blend to appeal to the feet and the mind . They were described as "avant -funk" by the music press of the time, but that was hardly their fault, and their songs were frequently mystifying with an occasional undercurrent of dark wit.

They weren't chart material, but they were bloody brilliant. 1 indie album, The Infinite, and then 2 mid 80's crackers, Jam Science (1984 ) and Oil and Gold (1985. )

Subsequently, time passed, various members left and other music was released but their peak interest period had probably passed.

After years away, I think they're back playing and touring again. Be great to see them sometime.

Kiwi Pete · Jan 20, 2018

M-J-G said:
Simple maybe, simplistic not so much

brigadoon · Jan 20, 2018

Bossfarmer said:
getting to the root of the problem

the root of the problem is not the farmers its the fact that world prices are lower than it is economically possible to produce beef in this part of the world and supermarkets squeezing our margins to this level, the support allows us and many other countries to compete

Finally you accept that there is a world price, and yes there are other countries which subsidise agriculture in one way or another.

What, in my view,you now need to accept, is that subsidies do not "allow us and many others to compete" rather they allow the inefficient to remain in business.

Please note that the term "inefficient" is not a criticism of those concerned or even an implication that they can improve output. "Efficient" in this context refers to cost per unit output, i.e. $/kg of beef produced. If a farm is producing the most it can at the least possible cost and still losing money then it is time that farm is rationalized in one way or another.

At the end of the day it is up to the consumer / taxpayer to decide what value they put on having British beef on the shelf and at present at least it does not seem to be a high figure.

brigadoon · Jan 20, 2018

gone up the hill said:
If I had cattle out now they might put on 0.5 kilo/head a day

Cattle indoors are putting on 1.7+ kilos head a day, they spend their days doing three things, eating/ sleeping or playing and cattle that are playing are happy and growing, you wont see cattle outdoors in this weather playing.

Why would you want suckler cows to be putting on 0.5 kg /day much less 1.7?

Those with access to decent windbreaks and a dry lie outside will sleep and play pretty well

Farmer Roy · Jan 20, 2018

ollie989898 said:
I still want to know:

A What people believe is an acceptable margin or operating profit per acre.

B What people believe is an acceptable level of subsidy.

C The value of any payment cap.

D. How any of the above would translate into this mythical level playing field?

I do wish some more positivity would result from these threads. We can grow grass here, other countries cannot. Having seen the immense scale of South Africa, Brazilian and North American agricultural systems, and the very serious challenges these industries face, I am convinced that the UK farmer, if he is careful, is in a better position. Not least because he is in close proximity to 300 million consumers and has decent rainfall.

Scotland can grow a hell of a lot more grass than we can, I'm very envious of that . . .
having 300 million potential customers almost on your doorstep sounds like a huge opportunity, dare I say . . . advantage !!

I think Scottish producers have an unfair advantage having SO many customers SO close to them, sh!t, how good would that be, think of the savings & the money to be made

Farmer Roy · Jan 20, 2018

Kiwi Pete said:
That's exactly what I'd do here if I had access to grant funding.
First year: buy a proper direct drill instead of my homebrew one
Second year: build my own chiller house
Third year: build an abattoir to feed it.
It takes approximately 21 minutes per lamb for me to process one at present.
Cattle 2 hours...

I'd one day like to provide locals with employment closer to home than us travelling 20 miles to cut up lambs and cattle... come and do it here

check out Will Harris at White Oak Pastures . . . , basically what he did & is now the only / biggest employer in his area, has really helped his community and the locals, not just his bank balance

Henarar · Jan 20, 2018

M-J-G said:
I was in a part of north west Scotland today that is about as poor and bleak as many would dream of.
I spoke to a few guys who are saying that without payments their areas will be uninhibited.

Many I'm sure will agree, myself included!

They also said that they have no idea what those with good land need payments for?

how much did/dose the land they farm cost them
I do rather like the hill boys line "I should get twice as much sub per acre on my land that cost half as much I could buy twice as much in the first place"

All together now, The other mans grass is always greener the sun ........................................................................................................................................................

Henarar · Jan 20, 2018

Farmer Roy said:
Scotland can grow a hell of a lot more grass than we can,

per animal they would need to

Henarar · Jan 20, 2018

Field A ten acres cost £100/acre to rent and get a sub of £50/acre

Field B twenty acres cost only £50/acre because it will only produce half as much grass as field A and gets a sub of £100/acre [because its poor land]

which would be the best to rent ?

M-J-G · Jan 20, 2018

Henarar said:
how much did/dose the land they farm cost them
I do rather like the hill boys line "I should get twice as much sub per acre on my land that cost half as much I could buy twice as much in the first place"

All together now, The other mans grass is always greener the sun ........................................................................................................................................................

Henarar said:
Field A ten acres cost £100/acre to rent and get a sub of £50/acre

Field B twenty acres cost only £50/acre because it will only produce half as much grass as field A and gets a sub of £100/acre [because its poor land]

which would be the best to rent ?

That must be an English hill farmers saying because hill land up here is €4/acre.

As for grass

I'm not sure any of these old boys will actually own much grass, and if it is, it could probably be easily counted in square meters per acre, the rest ranges in colour from white to brown. Green ain't a common colour.

I'm not talking 100,000 acre hill farmers here, these guys will be on fewer acres than you are, none of which will be capable growing a full acre of grass, yet you asking how much their land costs.
What has the value of land got to do with payments?
Don't you think that the severely disadvantaged areas of the country should receive payments to keep these disadvantaged communities functioning?

Henarar · Jan 20, 2018

I didn't think you would answer the question in my second post
You try that and I may think about answering your question

M-J-G · Jan 20, 2018

Henarar said:
Field A ten acres cost £100/acre to rent and get a sub of £50/acre

Field B twenty acres cost only £50/acre because it will only produce half as much grass as field A and gets a sub of £100/acre [because its poor land]

which would be the best to rent ?

Henarar said:
I didn't think you would answer the question in my second post
You try that and I may think about answering your question

I'd take them both, and then ask the agent, who is the peculiar guy who's hovering about in an odd manner as though he's deciding which of fields is best?

Not that it would matter, as his decision would be made for him

exmoor dave · Jan 20, 2018

Henarar said:
how much did/dose the land they farm cost them
I do rather like the hill boys line "I should get twice as much sub per acre on my land that cost half as much I could buy twice as much in the first place"

All together now, The other mans grass is always greener the sun ........................................................................................................................................................

Hmmmm.....
Lowland and upland (not moorland) BPS rate is now the same but only in the last couple years.
Prior to that upland ground (not moorland) was significantly less than lowland ground.

Moorland is currently circa £60/ha (I think off the top of my head), only last couple years, previously about £40/ha

Previous to all of that it was headage so a typical well stocked lowland unit would have had a good payment if divided by area farmed.
Hill farmers might have had a good looking total sub figure due to reasonablely large flocks/herds but divided by area wouldn't have looked as good.

Ok ag-environment schemes have been quite good money-wise for hill farmers, but again this is generally down to the large areas involved.

I don't know where you think hill farmers are getting or have asked for twice the sub?

Bossfarmer · Jan 20, 2018

tepapa said:
Good point but that just proves you admit that beef production in parts of Scotland is just not viable then.
I think farmers need to stand together and take on the super markets. The mindset that we are subbed to produce what they want needs to be scrutinised and farmers should produce what they can make a margin on firstly. At the end of the day tesco is happy buying the cheapest beef it can so why lose money trying to produce a top continental beast when a traditional type animal with lower cost might leave a greater margin.

with current costs and prices its not viable in many countries without support, you cant take on the supermarkets they will just import from other subsidised countries like ireland if you dont supply them, many people in the data i gave you are indeed doing this, what you save in costs you tend to loose in output with these native breeds

Bossfarmer · Jan 20, 2018

hillman said:
Prehaps but you've more acres , and that generally means more money ...

Are you in an NVz ?

more acres also means more costs and money tied up to make the same profit, ireland has an advantage over scotland in terms of grass growing ability with much milder winters weve a foot of snow here just now wbu?, yes

Kiwi Pete · Jan 20, 2018

lazy farmer said:
i see congratulations are in order for your prime minister

Yes and best of all our deputy PM will get his day in the sun for 6 whole weeks

(Quietly wish it was Winston who was having to birth an infant, the plonker)

Do Scottish suckler farmers need support??? Here are the figures

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0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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