Sewage in a DD system

dontknowanything · Jan 26, 2018

Would really like to get some sewage sludge into our farm, but I don't really know where it can fit in logistically. I can't apply to cover crops (CS scheme), presumably it can't go on with wheat in the autumn, pre spring drilling is dodgy as I suspect there is some soil damage from the application? Suppose I could do it on OSR in the autumn, although does that fall foul of NVZ rules?

britt · Jan 26, 2018

You are supposed to cultivate it in, so for notill, surface spreading is a non starter. I suppose you could use the liquid and have it injected.
I used to apply it after rape, before wheat, as there was a decent time slot.
I stopped using it when they started charging for it. Crop loss from the heap, waiting for them to spread, often in less than ideal conditions, etc add considerably to the cost. It's not as good value as they make out.

dontknowanything · Jan 26, 2018

britt said:
You are supposed to cultivate it in, so for notill, surface spreading is a non starter. I suppose you could use the liquid and have it injected.
I used to apply it after rape, before wheat, as there was a decent time slot.
I stopped using it when they started charging for it. Crop loss from the heap, waiting for them to spread, often in less than ideal conditions, etc add considerably to the cost. It's not as good value as they make out.

I figured drilling into it with a tine drill would be a cultivation...

Clive · Jan 26, 2018

dontknowanything said:
I figured drilling into it with a tine drill would be a cultivation...

Can you get it for free in your area ?

used to work well ahead of OSR here (never a slug problem after sludge) but i stopped using it when they started expecting farmers to pay for their waste disposal business

IMO its ok stuff but not worth paying for, would much rather spend the same budget on compost spreading, Fibrophos and Kalphos

dontknowanything · Jan 26, 2018

Clive said:
Can you get it for free in your area ?

used to work well ahead of OSR here (never a slug problem after sludge) but i stopped using it when they started expecting farmers to pay for their waste disposal business

IMO its ok stuff but not worth paying for, would much rather spend the same budget on compost spreading, Fibrophos and Kalphos

No, it's not free, which doesn't bother me as I'm interested in the value, not the cost.

We have been doing Fibrophos recently, but actually it stacks up poorly compared to sludge in some respects. We have been applying 1t/ha, which works out at around £75/ha including spreading, and for that you get 120kg of P, 120kg of K and traces.

Our local sewage people recommend 19t/ha of sludge, which is about £140/ha spread. For that you get 389kg/ha P, but only 6kg of K. You also get 223kg of N and 205kg of S. You also get about 10t/ha of dry matter/Carbon.

Seems like a good deal from a nutrient POV, it's really about the soil damage and practicalities I suppose?

Clive · Jan 26, 2018

dontknowanything said:
No, it's not free, which doesn't bother me as I'm interested in the value, not the cost.

We have been doing Fibrophos recently, but actually it stacks up poorly compared to sludge in some respects. We have been applying 1t/ha, which works out at around £75/ha including spreading, and for that you get 120kg of P, 120kg of K and traces.

Our local sewage people recommend 19t/ha of sludge, which is about £140/ha spread. For that you get 389kg/ha P, but only 6kg of K. You also get 223kg of N and 205kg of S. You also get about 10t/ha of dry matter/Carbon.

Seems like a good deal from a nutrient POV, it's really about the soil damage and practicalities I suppose?

heavy metals ? chlorides ? do they mention that ? lots of nasty sh!t ends up in sewage that soil life won't thank you for, on paper it looks like decent nutrition a bit like AD waste etc does (but thats free)

It's not bad stuff but we haven't missed it since they started charging about 10 yr ago

BTW - it REALLY bloody stinks ! locals won't thank you and you won't want to get out the tractor cab when working in a field that's had it applied !

dontknowanything · Jan 26, 2018

Clive said:
heavy metals ? chlorides ? do they mention that ? lots of nasty sh!t ends up in sewage that soil life won't thank you for, on paper it looks like decent nutrition a bit like AD waste etc does (but thats free)

It's not bad stuff but we haven't missed it since they started charging about 10 yr ago

BTW - it REALLY bloody stinks ! locals won't thank you and you won't want to get out the tractor cab when working in a field that's had it applied !

All good points, it is a balance. Maybe I'll try half a field of OSR or something like that

martian · Jan 26, 2018

Last time we used it, we stuck it on just after drilling a cover crop in autumn. Worked well, cover came up quick and did away with the need to cultivate it in...was a long way away from houses and footpaths though, as Clive says, not v popular with locals. It is useful stuff, but wouldn't want to use it too much as heavy metals etc soon build up in soil.

MattR · Jan 26, 2018

Clive said:
on paper it looks like decent nutrition a bit like AD waste etc does (but thats free)

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but there's an AD plant near us and the chap is going to give me a quote for supplying and spreading some digestate. Your post suggests there are some drawbacks to it or am I reading it wrong?

Will Blackburn · Jan 26, 2018

If there are no deleterious contaminants then sewage is the best fertiliser as the nutrients are in the correct ratios according to Neal Kinsey IIRC. Basically returning the food end products to the land completes the circle, apart from K which I assume passes through the treatment plant. I use it for the Zn and S as well as the regular N and P. We put it on grass between cuts if the ground is fit, harrowed and rolled down if fit.

ollie989898 · Jan 26, 2018

It doesn't smell that bad, we used to put it on after barley and before the OSR. Didn't put on huge doses from memory, once it is spread there is very little residue to see, it is so friable, I think with a tine drill or claydon in use it would virtually disappear, we used to plough or discordon the stuff in, the smell would vanish then, I don't know how quick it would go if you did it with a tine drill.

You can always direct drill drill the OSR and then spread it on the surface afterwards but you would need understanding neighbours.... seen it done many many times with pig solids.

Spreading sewage is no bother, you don't need to walk on it and a good go with the steam cleaner soon gets it off the tyres and mudguards. Used to smell mostly of washing powder when I did it. In some ways it spreads quickly and easily with the door only 18 inches open and there is no rocks or tyres or string in it. Just pray your bed chains don't give grief...

Clive · Jan 26, 2018

MattR said:
Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but there's an AD plant near us and the chap is going to give me a quote for supplying and spreading some digestate. Your post suggests there are some drawbacks to it or am I reading it wrong?

no real drawbacks to AD waste beyond the logistics of volume spread, I don't think it has as much available nutrition as analysis suggest either but as its free when we have had it that doesn't really matter. Dependant on feedstock Sodium content can be an issue with some AD waste however and there can be alcohols etc which are not great for biology, with all these things get analysis of everything not just the nutrients and elements they want you to see as advantageous

I'm not sure I would pay for it either - these waste disposal business are dependant upon land to spread to and make good money from disposing of waste and we as farmers give that ability away to them , how daft is that !

In general though any OM is better than none

ollie989898 · Jan 26, 2018

MattR said:
Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but there's an AD plant near us and the chap is going to give me a quote for supplying and spreading some digestate. Your post suggests there are some drawbacks to it or am I reading it wrong?

Get the N content analysed and get them to apply it to the tramlines in the growing crop in spring. You can save money on bagged N.

ollie989898 · Jan 26, 2018

If you are half handy to an AD plant and willing to adapt to take the stuff, you might find the stuff appears for free. It certainly does in these parts. Paying for it is a different matter as Clive suggests.

I used to get folk to take digestate after silage cuts on land that was too far to haul slurry to. Works very well indeed.

If you have a couple of hundred acres in a block, I would get an outfit to umbilical it on and get it tankered to a nurse tank.

You are arable farmers should be able to save a fortune on N P and K from this stuff.

Warnesworth · Jan 26, 2018

dontknowanything said:
No, it's not free, which doesn't bother me as I'm interested in the value, not the cost.

We have been doing Fibrophos recently, but actually it stacks up poorly compared to sludge in some respects. We have been applying 1t/ha, which works out at around £75/ha including spreading, and for that you get 120kg of P, 120kg of K and traces.

Our local sewage people recommend 19t/ha of sludge, which is about £140/ha spread. For that you get 389kg/ha P, but only 6kg of K. You also get 223kg of N and 205kg of S. You also get about 10t/ha of dry matter/Carbon.

Seems like a good deal from a nutrient POV, it's really about the soil damage and practicalities I suppose?

Those figures look high to me, like total figures, not plant available figures which could be considerably less. Can you post the analysis supplied to you?

SilliamWhale · Jan 26, 2018

Also it may stain your brogues

BenB · Jan 26, 2018

Warnesworth said:
Those figures look high to me, like total figures, not plant available figures which could be considerably less. Can you post the analysis supplied to you?

Agree, crop available nutrient tends to be more like 35-40kg N, 140kg P2O5, 110kg SO3 (from Thames cake anyway).

SimonD · Jan 26, 2018

I’d look at compost rather than sewage sludge. In a notill scenario how much are you going to lose to the atmosphere after spreading? Locals won’t be happy and it’s more persistent than you’d think.
I’d rather do a straw 4 muck deal in future and have less issues. Year 1 & 2 nutrition release guidance is a little ambitious.
But if you’ve no other option it’s probably better than nothing if you can accept the above.

ollie989898 · Jan 26, 2018

After a few years of applying these kinds of products, the soil almost becomes self feeding with a near constant drip-drip-drip of N into the system when the weather warms up. I've seen it dozens of times on dairy farms.

britt · Jan 27, 2018

ollie989898 said:
It doesn't smell that bad, we used to put it on after barley and before the OSR. Didn't put on huge doses from memory, once it is spread there is very little residue to see, it is so friable, I think with a tine drill or claydon in use it would virtually disappear, we used to plough or discordon the stuff in, the smell would vanish then, I don't know how quick it would go if you did it with a tine drill.

You can always direct drill drill the OSR and then spread it on the surface afterwards but you would need understanding neighbours.... seen it done many many times with pig solids.

Spreading sewage is no bother, you don't need to walk on it and a good go with the steam cleaner soon gets it off the tyres and mudguards. Used to smell mostly of washing powder when I did it. In some ways it spreads quickly and easily with the door only 18 inches open and there is no rocks or tyres or string in it. Just pray your bed chains don't give grief...

Smell varies depending on the plant that it comes out of. There are 3 that get used around here. Some not too bad, others STINK, and after a couple of weeks when it fades, a good soak of rain and back it comes !
There are also crop assurance rules to be aware of regarding cultivating it in.
As for its ability to stick to tractor paint work, under the cab, on the linkage, etc when it flicks up off the wheels, it should be sold as glue.
As Clive says, it's a waste product, we shouldn't be paying to solve their problem. Being asked to pay was the main reason I stopped using it.

Sewage in a DD system

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