Regenerative Agriculture

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Really quite good, I'm pleased you got along there and fetched us a report :cool:

The graphs I found particularly interesting as they are really quite relevant to NZ conditions as well, especially down here, the land of vertical paddocks and horizontal rain ;) when most of us think soil erosion we are likely to think more of Canterbury in a nor'wester, than dirty creeks and streams.
Intensive farming and cultivation has certainly changed fishing in our rivers; when I was a schoolboy rain meant fishing would improve, fastforward 15 years and rain meant unfishable rivers :cry:

Nothing more dangerous than a farmer with too much grass and money, the logical way to bring about change in the UK is to tighten the screws to the point farmers cannot afford to cultivate the way they do?
It is mindblowing the general lack of knowledge and misinformation to be found on the subject of soil, especially on the forum here; "ploughing in the snow" :banghead:

FFS.... :facepalm: just don't!

Hard to justify total degradation of soil habitat in ideal conditions, let alone when it is too wet and too cold for recovery in the next months (n) it must be great to have a backup income, is all I will say :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Don't ask me what I really think :)
Jane was VERY enthusiastic (y):love:, I got the impression she could have spoken on the subject for days :D. Much of what she said fits right in with this thread and she was especially upset about folk growing Forage Maize on inappropriate ground.

In the Q&A session there was some discussion of the direction change in UK Ag policy and targeting of support payments. We all agreed that the ideal would be a payment for outcomes (improved soil health) but it hinges on how you measure it and how do you avoid penalising those who already look after their soils. In the interim period it is not feasible to pay on improving soil health outcome (that requires measuring a baseline and re-assessing it each year - Hugely time consuming for the regulating authority even before you factor in exactly what to measure, when to measure it and to what lab standard) so a payment for adopting the right process is probably most appropriate in the shorter term.

Just how would you measure soil health to, fairly, pay a support payment for it? What would you need to measure: Worm activity? Organic matter content (& allow for folk "cheating" by large applications of compost/digestate)? Soil structure? Soil Biota? etc, etc.

A great speaker and a good industry advocate.

She was very impressed when I mentioned your Massey University study conclusion that you were managing to farm/live carbon negatively.

Anyway, a little off-topic for Regenerative Ag but I now have the presentation from Roger Draycott at GWCT as well (attached below).
 

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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Jane was VERY enthusiastic (y):love:, I got the impression she could have spoken on the subject for days :D. Much of what she said fits right in with this thread and she was especially upset about folk growing Forage Maize on inappropriate ground.

In the Q&A session there was some discussion of the direction change in UK Ag policy and targeting of support payments. We all agreed that the ideal would be a payment for outcomes (improved soil health) but it hinges on how you measure it and how do you avoid penalising those who already look after their soils. In the interim period it is not feasible to pay on improving soil health outcome (that requires measuring a baseline and re-assessing it each year - Hugely time consuming for the regulating authority even before you factor in exactly what to measure, when to measure it and to what lab standard) so a payment for adopting the right process is probably most appropriate in the shorter term.

Just how would you measure soil health to, fairly, pay a support payment for it? What would you need to measure: Worm activity? Organic matter content (& allow for folk "cheating" by large applications of compost/digestate)? Soil structure? Soil Biota? etc, etc.

A great speaker and a good industry advocate.

She was very impressed when I mentioned your Massey University study conclusion that you were managing to farm/live carbon negatively.

Anyway, a little off-topic for Regenerative Ag but I now have the presentation from Roger Draycott at GWCT as well (attached below).
Good stuff (y)

An interesting point - payments for progress....
I bet I know what Roy is thinking, that is like being paid for wearing your shoes on the right feet, why would you not?
But 'reality' suggests that farmers will just be greedy sods as they are and mine their soil carbon like they own it.
Personally the only straightforward and "jobsworth proof" way to administer a scheme would be using satellites to measure groundcover/biomass as that is what is doing the work for the soil.
Pay £60/acre and deduct £10 per month not actively growing living cover....
The hill farmer gets the full payment for all but his crop ground, and the arable operation that is dropping the ball loses a ton of money unless continual cover-cropping, to reflect the impact that cultivation and bare soil has on the environment?
It is hard to fleece a satellite, and the tech is already there, @Clive is already getting almost daily data on his cover levels (a case in point really, that not everyone needs paid to scrutinise their methods)

Simply the economics soon drive the change to conservation ag, but we all know how much change will occur without a reward system in place :whistle:

As above, hit farmers in the pocket is about the only way: don't pay more, simply make deductions and force it to be adopted, in my opinion.
If you can afford full tillage, then you obviously have far too much soil carbon and far too much margin - why should be rest of the sector be tarred as environmental terrorists just because someone can't farm without a plough?
It is 2018
 

Farmer Roy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
NSW, Newstralya
Interesting about farmers being paid for environmental benefits ( that will also benefit their own farms ultimately ), the concept of the carrot & stick, being coerced or forced to change against their will . . .

I did a week long RCS http://www.rcsaustralia.com.au/ course last week. Based on HM principles, but they really step it up a level with business principles, a great focus on soil ecology / plant growth, as well as the people involved in the business. They talk about the 3 legged pot - each leg represents people, business & production. If any are out of balance, the pot tips over.
Anyway, the course costs about $4 K, weeks accom in a motel & evening meals / drinks about another $1 K. Some people had travelled over 500km. There were 3 married couples, and 3 people who had brought their adult sons / daughters. So, a substantial financial investment, as well as a week away from the farm. It is possible to claim up to 50% back from the state govt for " training " after the course, but that is it. The point is, these people all chose to be there, made the effort to attend. NOT because they were being paid to, but because they wanted to improve their business, farms & ultimately personal satisfaction.
It was one of the best things I've ever done, such a great positive supportive group of people, great team work, interaction & future networking. I will say it is potentially life changing.
On the flip side, that is why I have not been posting on TFF much, I find it such a negative, confrontational & occasionally aggressive place, inhabited by some very blinkered negative people with very restricted paradigms not just with agriculture, but life in general. I don't need that negative sh!t. I really believe in being around positive people who will improve your life, not drag it down.

I haven't bothered doing a review of the course on TFF, don't see the point.

PS - the course attendees were all from " commercial " agriculture. Family farms, large corporate agriculture, property owners ( one bloke had 90,000 acres in Qld. Family place, he was there with his daughter & son in law to another daughter ) & also managers / station hands. None would be described as hippies or lefties or hobby farmers or not living in "the real world"
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
I can't wait - the idea of being able to have the sheep controlled via gate, and the cattle controlled via collar :) what a game changer for leader/follower grazing systems (y)
I see huge potential everywhere for grazing on grass leys on arable land but fences would just be an obstruction. Gove's new UK Ag Policy is looking to encourage grass breaks but you have to find a use for them :whistle:

Worryingly, current law in Scotland and Wales is outlawing the use of electric dog training collars as cruel and these cattle collars could fall foul of the same legislation here. :banghead:

As for @Farmer Roy and the paid course, I'm looking to do one of the 3LM network courses organised by @Sheila Cooke to help take us into regenerative grazing but getting away from a livestock farm is difficult in most seasons and the nearest courses (Rickmansworth, only an hour away) are running this month when we are calving :(. I'd happily invest the money with no government help.

Some folk won't make any change unless they are financially persuaded until they feel left behind by the majority doing it. :rolleyes: That's why the new policy needs to provide positive encouragement to them.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Hmmm.
Regulations...:facepalm:

That is one of the major advantages of not living north of the equator :) they actually treat farmers like we can handle farm management without an office full of rulebooks :sleep: :cautious: it is far simpler to let your values make your decisions of course.

It is a shame that farmers don't look abroad without prejudice and realise (and internalise) that they have been left behind :censored:
-"set stocking" :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
every visitor from abroad mentions that, with utter contempt :whistle:

I would prefer to farm without fences, would make it easier to just have a lane network permanently fenced, water troughs in handy places, and the rest can fly by wire (or in future, by collar, hopefully)

Good man, you will love a HM course (y)
I haven't got that far yet, as I said we are still at the experimental stage here.
 

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