"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Kiwi Pete · Aug 6, 2018

SilliamWhale said:
@Kiwi Pete - have you checked out John Kings Successsion page on FB yet? There seems to be a reasonable HM community about

Yes I have, thanks to you, Will

The moment you mentioned his name I found his FB page and gave it a like. He has some pretty good stuff, and good ol' FB came up with a heap of related pages, which have also given me a lot of insight into HM and "the decision tree" as you put it.
Funny how some little soundbites stick in your mind...

Ukjay · Aug 6, 2018

SilliamWhale said:
Possibly. But there is some evidence that fungicides also generally pay too!

OK, taking this on board for the time being - with such evidence to hand, what is the definition of ''Pay' - is that crop yield gains vs not using fungicides only, or does it provide the total impact analysis from our actions?

SilliamWhale said:
Look I felt this year had a different feel as well partly it comes from experience. Review the factors - cold spring (snow) kept disease at bay to start as things weren't growing, so April had little pressure, May was reasonably dry and brisk and June was very very dry. But it won't happen every year like that. My own view is one very well timed fungicide can be enough esp in the East but then again sometimes its not and that extra £10/ha may generate £50/ha back,

There's no point pretending things are repeatable but I do think you could probably get 3t/acre of Winter wheat most years without fungicide and a smaller amount of Fert for sure. We are spending a lot of money for marginal gains but then thats economics

OK, to prevent any misunderstandings following my somewhat strange to some questions - please do not let my questions appear to take this all out of context, as this is most definitely not my intention. I am simply questioning the rational behind things we do from an outside in perspective, as I do not carry any burdens of systematically doing something just because we always do it / did it that way, hence why I seek deeper understanding.

There are always more ways to 'polish the turd' as they say, but chosing one that suits ones chosen path is paramount imho.

If I did not follow my instinct and question the processes fully, then subsequently were to simply follow the crowd - I would not be doing so wisely, and it would serve me no purpose in where I wish to go in the future.

So, in essence - I hope my questions are taken in the way I hope they should be.

martian · Aug 6, 2018

The reason we arable farmers use fungicides is because the cereals are being attacked by fungi and, as Will says, it is often economic to deal with the problem this way.

The sensible thing to do would be to farm in such a way that the cereals don't go down with fungal disease. It isn't necessarily that straightforward. Modern varieties are a bit mimsy this way, but the main problem is that we are pushing them too hard with 200kg+ of N/ha so they grow like stink and their guard is down. Also at the speed they grow they can't get the balance of minerals right and the soil microbes are thrown right off kilter with all the artificials sloshing about.

@Simon C , who was being quoted from twitter (above), has been building up his soil for some time (he is in fact the current Soil Farmer of the Year). So his soil health should be helping his wheat thrive without fungicides. Whatever, it's a very encouraging result, but you probably won't read about it in the Farmers Weekly.

awkward · Aug 6, 2018

today why not revert to old varieties that thrived with holistic management .gluten might be healthier then as well. but these won't be pushed by merchants .its bad for their margins

holwellcourtfarm · Aug 6, 2018

awkward said:
today why not revert to old varieties that thrived with holistic management .gluten might be healthier then as well. but these won't be pushed by merchants .its bad for their margins

And no big seed royalties to be taken.....

Ukjay · Aug 6, 2018

martian said:
The reason we arable farmers use fungicides is because the cereals are being attacked by fungi and, as Will says, it is often economic to deal with the problem this way.

The sensible thing to do would be to farm in such a way that the cereals don't go down with fungal disease. It isn't necessarily that straightforward. Modern varieties are a bit mimsy this way, but the main problem is that we are pushing them too hard with 200kg+ of N/ha so they grow like stink and their guard is down. Also at the speed they grow they can't get the balance of minerals right and the soil microbes are thrown right off kilter with all the artificials sloshing about.

@Simon C , who was being quoted from twitter (above), has been building up his soil for some time (he is in fact the current Soil Farmer of the Year). So his soil health should be helping his wheat thrive without fungicides. Whatever, it's a very encouraging result, but you probably won't read about it in the Farmers Weekly.

Yes, I can accept that in part as I am not privie to the visual / actual issue at hand - but why are they being attacked by fungi, and more to the point, do you know which fungi?

Additionally, how it is influenced by the land management you choose. I note you make reference to the speed at which the crop grows with N/ha - so is the land management regime a contributory factor here. Trying to force nature to grow too fast, removing the biodiversity equilibrium?

(and that is not a dig in any way - simply a fact finding mission).

There seems to be more and more balance the more I read about holistic management each day

ShooTa · Aug 7, 2018

@Ukjay - the old "shifting baselines" - trying to break the old man out of that at the mo - your spending so much time with the sheep (an hour a day tops) to save 3 -4 days later in the year on various tasks - and hoping to reduce other field based tasks due to better soil down the line.
like weaning - why do we separate them? 2 flocks instead of 1 .. to finish them faster. sure but not atm as theres no market,,, or avoid mastitis .. only had 1 today. most have self weaned. and at 100 days im 35kg on my big lambs....

as for old varieties of cropping - wasnt old wheat the mutts nutts for roofing but modern varietys utterly shoite .. sure i heard that somewhere from a thatcher.
Hope everyones had a good day!

holwellcourtfarm · Aug 7, 2018

ShooTa said:
@Ukjay - the old "shifting baselines" - trying to break the old man out of that at the mo - your spending so much time with the sheep (an hour a day tops) to save 3 -4 days later in the year on various tasks - and hoping to reduce other field based tasks due to better soil down the line.
like weaning - why do we separate them? 2 flocks instead of 1 .. to finish them faster. sure but not atm as theres no market,,, or avoid mastitis .. only had 1 today. most have self weaned. and at 100 days im 35kg on my big lambs....

as for old varieties of cropping - wasnt old wheat the mutts nutts for roofing but modern varietys utterly shoite .. sure i heard that somewhere from a thatcher.
Hope everyones had a good day!

Old wheat varieties placed value on the straw as well. Modern ones see the straw as an inconvenience, hence plant breeding has selected for less of it and lower quality, hence the need for straw shorteners (pgr's).

4T+ yields may be "good" for feeding people and for the profits of the Ag chem companies but a good, reliable, robust 2.5T yielding variety that does it with very low inputs could be much better for the environment and the farmers pocket (as long as his/her fixed costs aren't too high).

Henarar · Aug 7, 2018

But you have to do more don't you know not better or more profit or less time more more and more
Bloody more-ons

holwellcourtfarm · Aug 7, 2018

Henarar said:
But you have to do more don't you know not better or more profit or less time more more and more
Bloody more-ons

"More-ons", I love it!

New word of the week.

Does that mean we all aspire to be "Less-ons"?

Kiwi Pete · Aug 7, 2018

More-ons

Wonder I never thought of that one

holwellcourtfarm said:
"More-ons", I love it!

New word of the week.

Does that mean we all aspire to be "Less-ons"?

You beat me to it.

I aspire to be a "less-in" until I get paid sufficiently to change my system.

Less is more

Henarar · Aug 7, 2018

holwellcourtfarm said:
Does that mean we all aspire to be "Less-ons"?

I don't know really but I think we need to think about what we do and see if doing nothing or something cheaper is more affective
call me lazy if you like but I very often think "what would happen if I didn't bother with that"

I got ridiculed on here for suggesting putting up barbed wire along a hedge without using any stakes, its been in place for 7 or 8 years now and nothing has got out, we have fence on stakes younger than that and some have rotted off
done some more this year it took hardly any time and no machinery to put up 50yds where the calves were starting to shove their heads in

years ago we use to chainharrow everything in the spring then we had to roll it in case we brought up some stones now we have keep lambs in the early winter that do the same/better job and we get paid for it while sat in front the fire

CornishTone · Aug 7, 2018

holwellcourtfarm said:
Old wheat varieties placed value on the straw as well. Modern ones see the straw as an inconvenience, hence plant breeding has selected for less of it and lower quality, hence the need for straw shorteners (pgr's).

4T+ yields may be "good" for feeding people and for the profits of the Ag chem companies but a good, reliable, robust 2.5T yielding variety that does it with very low inputs could be much better for the environment and the farmers pocket (as long as his/her fixed costs aren't too high).

Ummm, nope! Every “old” variety I’ve ever seen has been lanky and fally over. Modern varieties are bread (pun intended) for shorter, stronger straw with more tillers to increase yield. Straw volume is pretty much the same for those wishing to bale for bedding or chop for cover, but I can imagine not ideal for thatchers.

I had a customer back home that grew an “old” variety specifically for thatching. It was a hideous nightmare to keep it standing, even with minimal N and [emoji33] an early PGR for root strength! But very lucrative if it made the grade. He cut it with a binder and put it through a threshing machine to be gentle with it. Very interesting process but the lack of thatching quality straw could be as much to do with modern machinery as varietal choice.

holwellcourtfarm · Aug 7, 2018

CornishTone said:
Ummm, nope! Every “old” variety I’ve ever seen has been lanky and fally over. Modern varieties are bread (pun intended) for shorter, stronger straw with more tillers to increase yield. Straw volume is pretty much the same for those wishing to bale for bedding or chop for cover, but I can imagine not ideal for thatchers.

I had a customer back home that grew an “old” variety specifically for thatching. It was a hideous nightmare to keep it standing, even with minimal N and [emoji33] an early PGR for root strength! But very lucrative if it made the grade. He cut it with a binder and put it through a threshing machine to be gentle with it. Very interesting process but the lack of thatching quality straw could be as much to do with modern machinery as varietal choice.

Interesting.

We gave up growing cereals a few years ago but I well remember growing wheat in the 70's & 80's. It did fall over occasionally but we always managed to get the knife under it. The straw was longer but definitely didn't break up like modern varieties do.

Henarar · Aug 7, 2018

CornishTone said:
I had a customer back home that grew an “old” variety specifically for thatching. It was a hideous nightmare to keep it standing, even with minimal N and

an early PGR for root strength! But very lucrative if it made the grade. He cut it with a binder and put it through a threshing machine to be gentle with it. Very interesting process but the lack of thatching quality straw could be as much to do with modern machinery as varietal choice.

Around here they grow triticale for thatching that don't seem to go flat

Crofter64 · Aug 7, 2018

Kiwi Pete said:
If you are reasonably certain you can eliminate the thistles with herbicide, don't be scared to.
Soil health won't suffer from one dose, in theory it will impact the biology balance a little if the herbicide is translocated into the roots, but I do see where you are coming from if your horizons are compacted or there is a pan.
Soils are quite resilient, it's really the frequent stressors that do the damage, whether it is nitrogen or compaction or residues from wormers, or whatever.

Time heals all wounds, in the soil biology research I have done that's the general conclusion.
Many of the "soil heroes" came from the background of having poor soil health, and time with a different approach was the answer, nothing happens overnight.

Don't let prejudice influence your decisions, is what I'm trying to say.

very well said@kiwipete. We can get stuck in a purist mindset just as easily as in a conventional mindset. Both are limiting. I left some paddocks completely alone this year thinking the grasses would seedout and some good biology would happen in the soil. One paddock was a sacrifice area in the spring. Big mess there now. Just a pile of overgrown weeds. I took the idea right through to August instead of grazing it earlier. Now I’ve had to mow it. I took a good idea too far .

holwellcourtfarm · Aug 7, 2018

Crofter64 said:
very well said@kiwipete. We can get stuck in a purist mindset just as easily as in a conventional mindset. Both are limiting. I left some paddocks completely alone this year thinking the grasses would seedout and some good biology would happen in the soil. One paddock was a sacrifice area in the spring. Big mess there now. Just a pile of overgrown weeds. I took the idea right through to August instead of grazing it earlier. Now I’ve had to mow it. I took a good idea too far .

If it had been a wet season you could have trampled all that biomass in instead

Crofter64 · Aug 7, 2018

holwellcourtfarm said:
If it had been a wet season you could have trampled all that biomass in instead

It was bone dry instead

Farmer Roy · Aug 8, 2018

Farmer Roy · Aug 8, 2018

https://www.theland.com.au/story/5567800/drought-action-requires-groundswell-of-change/?cs=4951

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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