ShooTa
Member
- Location
- Denbighshire - In the vale of Clwyd!
bet that manse has some good stories.
good luck with the backfencing karliboy
good luck with the backfencing karliboy
"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
Very thought provoking video, as it reminds me of a documentory on how the modern world has impacted the Indigenous people of Australia.
Not sure if they can change the negative impact on their lives - or even if the younger generations want to change - but it is sad to see all that knowledge go to the wayside through what many consider the must haves in todays world.
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
I just can't get me head around the amount of fungicides & PGR used in cereals in the U.K.
So this tweet really struck a chord with me
So this tweet really struck a chord with me
One can deduce from the above - that once a practice becomes indoctrinated into one's psychological mindset, then one will simply continue with these actions regardless - I suppose moreso if there are payments being had as well, as the financial loss may not be as noticable.
A similar train of thought can be seen when spraying glypho on crops when it appears not needed.
Off to sit on the naughty step now
SilliamWhale
Member
As a fan of holistic management and no till there are good reasons for the use of fungicides. You have to come over to get your head around it.
This has been an exceptionally low pressure year, cold spring and dry
This has been an exceptionally low pressure year, cold spring and dry
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
We humans are creatures of habit. It takes a strong mind to avoid doing what you did last time just because, rather than thinking about what you should actually do this time. A left field example but last week I read "Painting the sand" by Kim Hughes about being a bomb disposal expert in Afghanistan. He writes that your life depends on never doing things the same way twice as the Taliban will notice and catch you out. It's very hard to do.One can deduce from the above - that once a practice becomes indoctrinated into one's psychological mindset, then one will simply continue with these actions regardless - I suppose moreso if there are payments being had as well, as the financial loss may not be as noticable.
A similar train of thought can be seen when spraying glypho on crops when it appears not needed.
Off to sit on the naughty step now
It didn't matter much when we lived in tune with nature but now it's devastating.
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- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
ShooTa
Member
- Location
- Denbighshire - In the vale of Clwyd!
exactly - - a targeted response - keyline/subsoiling to kickstart root breakthrough for others that "weeds" , an application of X for weedX , that gets the system reworking but only once.
im wrapping my head around this too - we have alot of thistles - thus dads response is thistleEX it all... im like noooooooooo my clover - but combined with a subsoiling it might be the winning combo - fixing the root isue of compaction and jump starting the competition to the thistles.
im wrapping my head around this too - we have alot of thistles - thus dads response is thistleEX it all... im like noooooooooo my clover - but combined with a subsoiling it might be the winning combo - fixing the root isue of compaction and jump starting the competition to the thistles.
SilliamWhale
Member
That's the point, many folk have still used their usual programme
Well I didn't but I can understand why they would. Its the old insurance policy thing.
SilliamWhale
Member
Seven habits of highly successful people etc.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
There are two distinct "patterns" here whether it's livestock or cropping, or that's how it appears.
The low input type, and the high input type, and they both seem to be diverging more each year, the low input guys spending ever less, and the high input ones spending the same or more.
I think where "systems approach" almost breaks down is where, for example, an all grass dairy introduces some concs. and then finds the health issues increase; and so the concentrates become a part of the system to raise production to create revenue to pay for it... asked my friend Jeff about his view on the crop health/crop protection and his view was almost exactly the same, in that the soil health eventually translated to better crop health, hence why he drills on the green and uses no pesticides, but said it "took a hell of a lot of faith and determination to get here" (his exact words)
Likewise Josh said a similar thing about his dairying operation, "don't be half-arse about it, if you are low cost then BE low cost, which is where I went wrong buying grain in" so there is maybe some food for thought.
The UK land prices really do dictate that spending is encouraged to prevent yield loss, to remain competitive.... but the yields were well up there years ago, is it breeding fanning the flames?
Are new cereal cultivars becoming less resilient than they were, it is quite easy to see how livestock can be made into softies by selection pressure?
The low input type, and the high input type, and they both seem to be diverging more each year, the low input guys spending ever less, and the high input ones spending the same or more.
I think where "systems approach" almost breaks down is where, for example, an all grass dairy introduces some concs. and then finds the health issues increase; and so the concentrates become a part of the system to raise production to create revenue to pay for it... asked my friend Jeff about his view on the crop health/crop protection and his view was almost exactly the same, in that the soil health eventually translated to better crop health, hence why he drills on the green and uses no pesticides, but said it "took a hell of a lot of faith and determination to get here" (his exact words)
Likewise Josh said a similar thing about his dairying operation, "don't be half-arse about it, if you are low cost then BE low cost, which is where I went wrong buying grain in" so there is maybe some food for thought.
The UK land prices really do dictate that spending is encouraged to prevent yield loss, to remain competitive.... but the yields were well up there years ago, is it breeding fanning the flames?
Are new cereal cultivars becoming less resilient than they were, it is quite easy to see how livestock can be made into softies by selection pressure?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
If you are reasonably certain you can eliminate the thistles with herbicide, don't be scared to.
Soil health won't suffer from one dose, in theory it will impact the biology balance a little if the herbicide is translocated into the roots, but I do see where you are coming from if your horizons are compacted or there is a pan.
Soils are quite resilient, it's really the frequent stressors that do the damage, whether it is nitrogen or compaction or residues from wormers, or whatever.
Time heals all wounds, in the soil biology research I have done that's the general conclusion.
Many of the "soil heroes" came from the background of having poor soil health, and time with a different approach was the answer, nothing happens overnight.
Don't let prejudice influence your decisions, is what I'm trying to say.
Got a very good friend that was Bomb Disposal (I always say he is derranged for doing that job, but he is a great guy) - and that sums the way one should be prepared to think completely
Ooor, and what I believe to be more vital for the 'Now', why not openly discuss you points as to why you say such on this thread.
Afterall, this is what it is here for - good open discussion / debate / challenge to the norm etc.
Live and learn
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Does that translate into a low-expectation year as well, perhaps?
Going on from what I said above about Jeff and his transition, he commented that expectations and grain values (I guess that's prejudice?) made it difficult.
However, he does have more tools than most arable farms do, he's a livestock farmer.
He grazes sheep and cattle, and selling grain is secondary, are livestock possibly the missing tools over there?
We have a pretty wet climate, which is generally the reasons given on TFF for doing what worked last year, and thats why I pumped him for information, how did he eliminate his fungicides with an average 1100mm rainfall when many struggle in a less humid environment, and he said it is a lack of living groundcover under the crop and a lack of livestock that made him rely on the fungicides heavily through the 80's and 90's.
Putting a clover blanket down kept the soil from splashing on the leaves and constantly feeds exudates in, while the crop is establishing. It also regulates the humidity and temperature under the canopy.
Livestock promotes his tillering by strategic grazing timing. But he does use quite high seedrates, 200kg/ha in certain situations.
So, to try and open the channel of thought some more: whilst being trained to use fungicides etc, are we not supposed to factor in the climate conditions around us to ensure the efficacy of what we are applying to ensure the efficient use of chems too.
One could read from the above application that it may potentially have been applied irrespective if the surrounding climate conditions - ergo simply " We've always done it this way" perhaps - hence why belt and braces approach maybe somewhat flawed?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Relative values, perhaps?
If sheep are valuable enough, NZ farmers will stop feeding the bottom few percent to their dogs, it is happening here now.
Economy does shape decisionmaking, and values definitely influence profitability, take a look at the comments on the "buy stores or sell the fodder" thread.
Sometimes we use archaic information, if that's all we have - and that's farming.
Many sons are "doing what Dad" did, when perhaps "doing what Granddad" did would be more profitable, and have better social, environmental, and economic outcomes?
Many are inclined to use the tools harder, instead of manage harder, because "working" is what we are immersed in throughout our educational career, not "management".
You sometimes need to unlearn some things to help your self - hence "holistic management" can help us to let go of prejudice, and recognise what it is, for what it is: old news, sometimes ulterior, sometimes irrelevant
SilliamWhale
Member
Possibly. But there is some evidence that fungicides also generally pay too!
Look I felt this year had a different feel as well partly it comes from experience. Review the factors - cold spring (snow) kept disease at bay to start as things weren't growing, so April had little pressure, May was reasonably dry and brisk and June was very very dry. But it won't happen every year like that. My own view is one very well timed fungicide can be enough esp in the East but then again sometimes its not and that extra £10/ha may generate £50/ha back,
There's no point pretending things are repeatable but I do think you could probably get 3t/acre of Winter wheat most years without fungicide and a smaller amount of Fert for sure. We are spending a lot of money for marginal gains but then thats economics
SilliamWhale
Member
@Kiwi Pete - have you checked out John Kings Successsion page on FB yet? There seems to be a reasonable HM community about