Direct Drilling post glyphosate

Samcowman · Aug 18, 2018

Following a discussion tonight what’s everyone’s thoughts on how direct drilling if/when glyphosate is withdrawn.
Long term thinking here as I was told there’s no point buying a direct drill because it won’t work without glyphosate!!!!
@Clive am I right in remembering you are working on no glyphosate use?

Samcowman · Aug 18, 2018

Should add. His view was that there will be more ploughing when glyphosate goes. Which can’t be a good thing

newjames · Aug 18, 2018

By the time it gets banned there will be a replacement, no doubt more expensive tho, its up to farmers to show the regulators that dd is far better for the environment than tillage so it doesnt get banned, even the french have said they will ban it only when a replacement is ready, what drill are you loking at ?

SilliamWhale · Aug 18, 2018

Ill retire. Rent out for spuds, caulis, bit of grass, chickens etc unless wheat is £250t. Better return on ones cash

(But it wont get banned. This latest court case is a good chance to crystallize the issues properly and properly demonstrate the evidence away from single issue pressure groups)

SilliamWhale · Aug 18, 2018

newjames said:
By the time it gets banned there will be a replacement, no doubt more expensive tho, its up to farmers to show the regulators that dd is far better for the environment than tillage so it doesnt get banned, even the french have said they will ban it only when a replacement is ready, what drill are you loking at ?

No it isnt up to the farmers. Farmers wont lose out we can till away and wash the soil away if needs be. Its up to the public to think about what choices they want to make

newjames · Aug 18, 2018

SilliamWhale said:
No it isnt up to the farmers. Farmers wont lose out we can till away and wash the soil away if needs be. Its up to the public to think about what choices they want to make

I used to like ploughing but dont want to go back, i cant believe how nice our soil is this year. I enjoy the extra time dd gives me, i do it for myself not an ungrateful public

SilliamWhale · Aug 18, 2018

newjames said:
I used to like ploughing but dont want to go back, i cant believe how nice our soil is this year. I enjoy the extra time dd gives me, i do it for myself not an ungrateful public

Dont worry. It wont get banned

Brisel · Aug 19, 2018

SilliamWhale said:
Dont worry. It wont get banned

I wish I shared your confidence. All these news stories continue to sway the voting public's views against it & the politicians will respect the voting public's wishes.

Alternatives? Glufosinate ammoinium (Harvest) was not renewed by Bayer because it wasn't worth doing the work. Paraquat went due to toxicity issues. Diquat is under threat. All of these just couldn't compete with glyphosate at less than £2/litre. None of these are as good as glyphosate except on a few minor weeds.

Crimper rollers are fine on thick woody stemmed plants in hot climates but no good on soft grasses like blackgrass in our temperate climate. I don't see anything commercially viable as an alternative yet but that R&D won't happen until a ban on glyphosate is likely. Flame burners, electrostatic weeders etc are too expensive.

I still have a plough in the back of the shed, a set of light discs and a straw rake. All of these will get considerably more use post glyphosate but ultimately current crop rotations will have to change drastically.

Farmer Roy · Aug 19, 2018

just remember, glypho wasn't always so cheap

in the 1980's it was a LOT dearer than it is now . . .
compare that to the price of diesel & tractors & steel . . .

Samcowman · Aug 19, 2018

newjames said:
By the time it gets banned there will be a replacement, no doubt more expensive tho, its up to farmers to show the regulators that dd is far better for the environment than tillage so it doesnt get banned, even the french have said they will ban it only when a replacement is ready, what drill are you loking at ?

Still in the trials stage at the moment have a couple more this autumn to do. Doesn’t help the wheat we did last autumn was a bit disappointing but it was a hard trial in not ideal conditions.
Even if you think it won’t be banned you need to have viable options prepared just in case.

SilliamWhale · Aug 19, 2018

Brisel said:
I wish I shared your confidence. All these news stories continue to sway the voting public's views against it & the politicians will respect the voting public's wishes.

Alternatives? Glufosinate ammoinium (Harvest) was not renewed by Bayer because it wasn't worth doing the work. Paraquat went due to toxicity issues. Diquat is under threat. All of these just couldn't compete with glyphosate at less than £2/litre. None of these are as good as glyphosate except on a few minor weeds.

Crimper rollers are fine on thick woody stemmed plants in hot climates but no good on soft grasses like blackgrass in our temperate climate. I don't see anything commercially viable as an alternative yet but that R&D won't happen until a ban on glyphosate is likely. Flame burners, electrostatic weeders etc are too expensive.

I still have a plough in the back of the shed, a set of light discs and a straw rake. All of these will get considerably more use post glyphosate but ultimately current crop rotations will have to change drastically.

I think more quality science will start coming out

Brisel · Aug 19, 2018

SilliamWhale said:
I think more quality science will start coming out

"Necessity is the mother of all invention"
Plato

DrWazzock · Aug 19, 2018

Stubble turnips or other cover crop and sugar beet tops grazed off by the sheep leave me with a clean start in the spring. Then drill sugar beet and Spring barley. The sheep then graze the beet tops which again leaves a clean start. The Spring barley doesn't harbour as many grass weeds as winter cereals.

I think I could live without glyphosate using cover crops and the sheep to graze them down, but there can be soil erosion issues and poaching in a wet winter which could be a bigger problem than the effects of glyphosate.

I also looking at the viability of winter sown cereals. Spring barley now offers just as good a yield as winter barley here with less weed pressure, less herbicide cost and the opportunity of a "cleaning" over winter catch crop for grazing and under sowing for rotational grass leys.

Keeping the ground busy / covered all year is the answer.

I think we do tend to use a lot more glyphosate than we actually need. And often it just doesn't work on Cranesbill and such like anyway, so I need a different approach.

You can't get a decent chit of anything before winter cereals so again, spraying off before drilling winter cereals or OSR only does half a job, particularly with sterile brome etc. But leave it to green up in the autumn, graze off over winter and you will flush out a lot of these difficult to control weeds.

Deutzdx3 · Aug 19, 2018

If it does go, probably a slightly more organic route to deal with black grass. If you look up chameleon drill it doubles as a Dutch hoe that can hoe in between the rows. John pawsy has one and a few videos on it. That’s what an opico time Harrow was originally designed for, until dome one realised it pulled thatch out really well and more machines sell for grassland than for harrowing in between corn rows. Interesting to see if hoeing in-between rows reduces black grass or may well spread it if not done correctly.

Clive · Aug 19, 2018

It’s easy to spend your life worrying about things that haven’t happened yet

I will worry about glyphosate being banned if/when it happens

I’ve experimented with crimping covers on frosts etc but it was not over successful. There was a article in issue 2 of direct driller that had some research of crimping to reduce / replacement glyphosate

I’m certainly not about to buy a plough or a shire horse to pull it - agriculture should be progressive and not regressive

DrivingDig · Aug 19, 2018

newjames said:
By the time it gets banned there will be a replacement, no doubt more expensive tho, its up to farmers to show the regulators that dd is far better for the environment than tillage so it doesnt get banned, even the french have said they will ban it only when a replacement is ready, what drill are you loking at ?

Takes years to licence a new product so don’t assume one can just be magic‘d up in a hurry. Dicamba a possibility but NGOs already fully on the offensive on that one too. There may we’ll be a lengthy void with no chemical substitute.

DrWazzock · Aug 19, 2018

Just get some sheep. Then you won't have time to worry about anything else.

Brisel · Aug 19, 2018

DrivingDig said:
Takes years to licence a new product so don’t assume one can just be magic‘d up in a hurry. Dicamba a possibility but NGOs already fully on the offensive on that one too. There may we’ll be a lengthy void with no chemical substitute.

Dicamba does nothing for grasses. It doesn't even have much of a broad spectrum on broad leafed weeds either.

Will Blackburn · Aug 19, 2018

Dicamba is a serious issue in the US, where drift from tolerant maize to soy beans is causing some headaches.

newjames · Aug 19, 2018

DrivingDig said:
Takes years to licence a new product so don’t assume one can just be magic‘d up in a hurry. Dicamba a possibility but NGOs already fully on the offensive on that one too. There may we’ll be a lengthy void with no chemical substitute.

There is a new product already, cant find it to quote now but did see it the other day on tinternet does mates tail too which is becoming a problem here

Direct Drilling post glyphosate

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