Farming without subsidy.

gone up the hill · Aug 26, 2018

Clive said:
no what I'm saying is subs have just moved the goal posts in the same ways they have every other farmer I compete against (and make mistake we are all competing with each other) - higher rents and lower commodity prices are the result of subs, every acre I have ever rented has had its price inflated or not by its ability to claim sub - the land owner not the farmer has been the ultimate winner I guess

if one farmer gets subs we all need subs, if no farmer gets subs we don't need them

food will continue to be produced but things will be different and hopefully better in the long run

Commodity prices will NOT rise if subs go that is for sure and to think that will happen is very short sighted.

What the government is planning is no subs/ low food prices and the UK having the highest production/ welfare standards in the world and if this happens you can see what will happen to UK AG and it wont be pretty.

Clive · Aug 26, 2018

lloyd said:
We are in a worldwide marketplace as you are fully aware.
large quantities of maize are/will be heading here now which
is having an effect on uk wheat price so removing subsidies and
perks would only work if it was a globally fair system ?

and we are still subsidised right now as well

Clive · Aug 26, 2018

gone up the hill said:
Commodity prices will NOT rise if subs go that is for sure and to think that will happen is very short sighted.

What the government is planning is no subs/ low food prices and the UK having the highest production/ welfare standards in the world and if this happens you can see what will happen to UK AG and it wont be pretty.

for sure ?

can I borrow your crystal ball please ?

truth is no one knows, it will be a fun ride, hold tight, enjoy and adapt and look for the new opportunities and not the problems !

gone up the hill · Aug 26, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
So you are saying subs are helpful to new businesses?

Farming will always be difficult to get into because of the serious amount of capital needed to farm.

gone up the hill · Aug 26, 2018

Clive said:
for sure ?

can I borrow your crystal ball please ?

truth is no one knows, it will be a fun ride, hold tight, enjoy and adapt and look for the new opportunities and not the problems !

Yep that is what they are planning.

No government will be seen to be behind massive food price rises.

neilo · Aug 26, 2018

Forage Trader said:
A lot packed up milking after they saw what their quota was worth and a lot like us were awarded very little and had to buy to stay in business .just like we had to when sheep quotas came in . Spent over £40,000 To buy quota for sheep we already had of people who had gone out of sheep the year before . It's was like a blxxdy circus

Haven't you been milking that sheep quota until now, under the historic SFP system in Wales? Or did you cash the high value entitlements in for someone else to do so? :scratchhead:

Will Blackburn · Aug 26, 2018

gone up the hill said:
Farming will always be difficult to get into because of the serious amount of capital needed to farm.

So why not help by reducing the capital needed?

lloyd · Aug 26, 2018

Clive said:
I was waiting for someone to mention that ! ............

This is why leaving the EU may not be the disaster some like to think it is, controlling our import and borders becomes essential if we can produce without subs

I don't think controlling cheap agricultural imports is top of the governments agenda :scratchhead:

Kevtherev · Aug 26, 2018

Any food price rises won’t happen overnight either

Derrick Hughes · Aug 26, 2018

neilo said:
Haven't you been milking that sheep quota until now, under the historic SFP system in Wales? Or did you cash the high value entitlements in for someone else to do so?

No I sold the sheep at the time of F&M, and I mean sold for not a lot . The sheep quota I bought was lost
What I did was due to a Heart Attack 15 years ago so not realy a case in point

Henarar · Aug 26, 2018

gone up the hill said:
Farming will always be difficult to get into because of the serious amount of capital needed to farm.

That's not true as I explained in the thread I started the other day you can get in to farming for nothing
the trouble is a lot of the "its impossible to get in to farming unless you have a silver spoon shoved up your ass" brigade seem to think you need a 1000 acre fully equipped farm [deliberate exaggeration]lobbed at you to start with when in fact you don't

Suffolk Serf · Aug 26, 2018

I generally try (and often fail) to keep out of the regular subsidy debate. Mainly as subsidies are a tiny, insignificant, part of my farming business and any negativity towards them is probably just sour grapes that I don't get them.
However I chose the sector that I'm in (pigs) mainly because they aren't subsidised.
I'm certain that they will survive, in a very different form though, as it is the governments means of controlling how land is used.
I'm hoping that there will be opportunities post brexit and am aiming to be in a financial position to be able to take up one or two. The only snag is spotting them.

Kevtherev · Aug 26, 2018

Henarar said:
That's not true as I explained in the thread I started the other day you can get in to farming for nothing
the trouble is a lot of the "its impossible to get in to farming unless you have a silver spoon shoved up your ass" brigade seem to think you need a 1000 acre fully equipped farm [deliberate exaggeration]lobbed at you to start with when in fact you don't

From small acorns
Here in wales I see a lot of micro businesses starting up by youngsters
Honey production being one success.
I know a lot of very successful farmers who started with nothing.

hally · Aug 26, 2018

Agrispeed said:
Thats not the opinion of people who actually farm in NZ. What are these lower welfare standards in NZ everyone mentions?

And what methods do most farmers do to mitigate this? There are ways of making a business more resilient to drought, floods, or anything else, but that seems to be largely ignored in the UK as its 'too much work'. Everyone complains about poor income but very few are actually proactive either in being progressive and trying new methods or in improving prices they receive.

I'm young - I'm 24 and run my own business, which I started in 2016, previously I managed a farm whilst doing a BSc, I then took out a private loan (as banks were not interested) of over 10x what I actually had in cash and started my own business. I could pay that loan off at the end of this lactation if I so wished (without any subsidies). Yet I am told over and over again that there is no money in farming, and no young blood would want to go into the industry. Do you not think that is because everyone is telling them they don't want to? Farming is as profitable as you make it.

The majority farming in New Zealand now will not be the ones that were hit back then in the majority of cases, it was a good while back now.

hally · Aug 26, 2018

spin cycle said:
in a lot of cases only because they've taken on a lot of debt...i googled it all a while back.....in short their debt is 20 times their annual output....ours is six

sometimes they've got 100 yr mortages

after the last dairy downturn nz banks want farmers to pay debt back and build up cash buffers for the next downturn

ever since subs went there have periodic attempts to bring in a 'farm debt mediation bill' to protect farmers from the banks.....it finally seems it's going to happen

they've also had lower environmental regulation which is about to change...this is going to need investment but are the banks going to lend more given the already indebtness and 'mediation bill'

in short kiwi farmers have 'played the game of their lives' in terms of efficiency but will/has it been enough?

this nz farming is rosy myth needs debunking

This is exactly the point I was trying to get over (but more eloquently put) I am getting tired of it being portrayed as some kind of utopia, they are very efficient in many ways but their system will not move to a lot of farming areas in the UK for a variety of reasons.However many of their ideas and practices can certainly improve ours.

spin cycle · Aug 26, 2018

hally said:
This is exactly the point I was trying to get over (but more eloquently put) I am getting tired of it being portrayed as some kind of utopia, they are very efficient in many ways but their system will not move to a lot of farming areas in the UK for a variety of reasons.However many of their ideas and practices can certainly improve ours.

they've basically replaced their subsidy by being a third more effecient,a third in debt and a third in lower regulation IMO

lloyd · Aug 26, 2018

spin cycle said:
they've basically replaced their subsidy by being a third more effecient,a third in debt and a third in lower regulation IMO

Isn't pollution a major issue within the NewZealand dairy industry?
You could say they are behind the uk not in front in some aspects!

hally · Aug 26, 2018

spin cycle said:
they've basically replaced their subsidy by being a third more effecient,a third in debt and a third in lower regulation IMO

Clive’s right though a lot of the input costs will reduce without subs. Our lad who works here was down there clipping, when he told them what we were paying for basic sheep inputs ( wormer, tags etc) never mind the cost of carcass disposal, they could hardly sit on their bar stools for laughing.it was admittedly a few year ago now.

spin cycle · Aug 26, 2018

lloyd said:
Isn't pollution a major issue within the NewZealand dairy industry?
You could say they are behind not in front in some aspects!

yes and it's an issue coming to the fore....one publication i read reflected the pessimism of kiwi dairy farmers given what they've been through and the financial challenges of paying of debt whilst building cash reserves and complying with nvz type rules

Henarar · Aug 26, 2018

hally said:
never mind the cost of carcass disposal

Can't see why the cost of that would go down

Farming without subsidy.

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