If only MP's , Remain voters and the European Union had respected the democratic vote result win which meant that the uk would leave the eu on the 29th march. If only indeed! by now we would have had a deal and a managed departure plan which would have saved us from all the uncertainty that is currently causing massive disruption and expense to people trying to second guess the outcome and protect there future. Brexit hasnt caused all this mess, the death of democracy has.
Death Of Democracy
- Thread starter Werzle
- Start date
Bomber_Harris
Member
- Location
- London
Okay, I'll bite
Let's say for the sake of argument everyone supported Brexit in principle, what kind of deal would we have been able to successfully negotiate with the EU that would keep all of us happy?
Let's say for the sake of argument everyone supported Brexit in principle, what kind of deal would we have been able to successfully negotiate with the EU that would keep all of us happy?
That would be impossible but at the moment we have a deal which will keep very few people happy.
Red lines have caused the mess.
- Location
- Ceredigion
No point leaving if you remove red lines
Bomber_Harris
Member
- Location
- London
okay, I'll bite again
you're right, even though we all support Brexit in principle, the majority of us won't support May's deal
so what kind of deal do you think the majority of us will find acceptable? (and please don't respond with some wishful thinking that Jeremy Corbyn would come out with)
No point getting your feet and head caught in a mesh of red lines, with ERG pulling at all ends..
Totally agree,Europe red lines over free movement of people have caused the problems ,if only they had changed their red lines when Cameron asked we would not be in the position we are now
The present deal is just about acceptable IF the back stop is removed, time limited or the UK can withdraw from it without the EUs permission.
As it is, the backstop is a trap that will keep us in the EU forever. It also gives all the bargaining power to the EU in future trade talks (because if we do not agree with the EUs offers we have to stay on the EU).
If the backstop is not removed or amended, the only other way to establish an equal playing field for future trade talks is no deal.
- Location
- Ceredigion
i think its pretty clear now the deadline will be extended, what else can they do , the EU know that no deal is off the table the remainers have more or less told them so, they are going to drag it out as long as they can, make is so difficult a that in the end we wont leave, thats their plan
wanton dwarf
Member
Any trade deal would have given a starting point for further negotiations.
AND it would have galvanised what is important or not with the future relationship deal.
Theresa May's deal allows the EU to sucker punch the UK.
It's the most pathetic and idiotic decision I've ever seen.
Practically Slash & Burn by Remoaners .. cretinous isn't the word for it.
wanton dwarf
Member
Remoaners & the EU stand point of a future relationship deal has caused this .. 2.5 years of creating something which has no baring on the working population .. pure politics by the cretinous that put their ego & dogma before the real world.
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wanton dwarf
Member
Keep kicking the can down the road .. slash and burn as much as possible .. create a "I told you so environment" .. Remain in the next general election.
All doable.
- Location
- Devon
I think and hope that all this talk of shambles, death of democracy etc, will be seen to be wrong in the fullness of time.
This is probably the biggest constitutional issue to face parliament in modern times since 24hr rolling news and instant social media comment.
In previous times we would just get weekly updates and announcement at a conclusion. I have some faith that our rather strange system of democracy will deliver a reasonable outcome in due process.
It was a huge demonstration of democracy that UKIP managed to force a referendum against all odds. There isn't a magic answer to our relationship with all our European friends that will satisfy everyone but to ignore the issue or fail to address problems and make changes will only make future problems worse.
We are in the middle of a huge upheaval, now is the time to make changes.
The greater the changes made now,the smoother our path will be in the future and vice versa. No brexit would be avoid any immediate problems but everyone would know there would be hell on just around the corner.
This is probably the biggest constitutional issue to face parliament in modern times since 24hr rolling news and instant social media comment.
In previous times we would just get weekly updates and announcement at a conclusion. I have some faith that our rather strange system of democracy will deliver a reasonable outcome in due process.
It was a huge demonstration of democracy that UKIP managed to force a referendum against all odds. There isn't a magic answer to our relationship with all our European friends that will satisfy everyone but to ignore the issue or fail to address problems and make changes will only make future problems worse.
We are in the middle of a huge upheaval, now is the time to make changes.
The greater the changes made now,the smoother our path will be in the future and vice versa. No brexit would be avoid any immediate problems but everyone would know there would be hell on just around the corner.
wanton dwarf
Member
I don't think the deal is acceptable at all.
Far too many negatives with no positives.
Extending the deadline, dropping the partnership deal as impossible due to politics and opening up trade talks immediately.
IF the EU plays ball on trade they might get co-operation on other avenues but personally speaking I want the EU totally removed.
While I agree, this is much overplayed point. The free movement of people has been ignored quietly or openly by a number of member states. Some have discouraged immigration by making life undesirable, if not impossible, and all manner of things in between and some have openly welcomed immigrants. It is a bit like the Euro, one size fits all attitude, that in reality suits very few. Of course there will be no such thing as immigration within the EU when the Federal state is finally in place and this is just part of the agenda to strip countries of their nationality or kill nationalism altogether.
The trap is closing ever tighter. The linking of movement of goods to movement of people is a perfect piece of nonsense skulduggery.
wanton dwarf
Member
Either you devalue your currency (Impossible in EURO zone), fund a nation states inability to compete (Germany giving money away ? No !) or you allow unemployed people to move to where the jobs are.
It's the same options people have in the USA with states and the UK with Counties.
FOM destroys European culture .. which is very silly IMHO.
Democracy is not a useful tool for the extreme right or left under normal circumstances and this is why most true democracies tend to tread the middle ground. Brexit provided an opportunity for the extremes to "improve" their position.
The current battle in Parliament is not between the extreme right (ERG) and JC/McDonnell on the left - that battle is yet to happen.
It should be remembered that Winston Churchill (not a fan personally) in 1940 was viewed by the established political leadership as a traitor. In respect to the 11 MPs who have resigned from their respective parties i applaud (dont always agree with some of them) their honesty. As pointed out elsewhere it would be good for more MPs to step up.
MPs are primarily elected as individuals and as i "pasted" in elsewhere in this forum an MPs responsibility extend way past "blind" commitment to party and people. The electorate are given a regular opportunity to vote on their MP however as we dont have Proportional Representation and 2 party machines that dictate candidates we are in a poor position.
I agree with comments on QuestionTime about the fact that we have two parties that will do anything to keep the status quo.
JC does not want to be PM he wants to sling s**t from the opppositon benches.
TM wants us all to do as we are told, non of the ERG including JRM want anyth8ng to do with govering our country, like JC they just want to sling s**t.
JC has lost the next election for Labour, the Tories will bring true right wing policies to bear, these policies will once again be their downfall, Labour under new leadership will win back power around 2032. What they inherit depends upon the Tory party and its approach to investment and creating new welath for ordinary people. I think 12 years is long enough to prove/disprove the brexit "principle"
The current battle in Parliament is not between the extreme right (ERG) and JC/McDonnell on the left - that battle is yet to happen.
It should be remembered that Winston Churchill (not a fan personally) in 1940 was viewed by the established political leadership as a traitor. In respect to the 11 MPs who have resigned from their respective parties i applaud (dont always agree with some of them) their honesty. As pointed out elsewhere it would be good for more MPs to step up.
MPs are primarily elected as individuals and as i "pasted" in elsewhere in this forum an MPs responsibility extend way past "blind" commitment to party and people. The electorate are given a regular opportunity to vote on their MP however as we dont have Proportional Representation and 2 party machines that dictate candidates we are in a poor position.
I agree with comments on QuestionTime about the fact that we have two parties that will do anything to keep the status quo.
JC does not want to be PM he wants to sling s**t from the opppositon benches.
TM wants us all to do as we are told, non of the ERG including JRM want anyth8ng to do with govering our country, like JC they just want to sling s**t.
JC has lost the next election for Labour, the Tories will bring true right wing policies to bear, these policies will once again be their downfall, Labour under new leadership will win back power around 2032. What they inherit depends upon the Tory party and its approach to investment and creating new welath for ordinary people. I think 12 years is long enough to prove/disprove the brexit "principle"
MPs should primarily represent the major concerns of their constituents. If they do not they should be deselected. If they do not wish to go down the party route they should stand as independents from the outset. The problem arises when the power and policy within the party shifts dramatically. I don`t believe that this has happened since the last election or perhaps these people were not paying attention.
Your wrong arcobob an MP represents their constituencie in its entirety. They are elected by their constituents. The MP then chooses to fillow a party line.
Parliament is littered with historical examples of MPs voting against there consituents wishes (multiple wars for a start)
There are also many ardent Brexit MPs representing constituencies that voted remain.
Parliament is littered with historical examples of MPs voting against there consituents wishes (multiple wars for a start)
There are also many ardent Brexit MPs representing constituencies that voted remain.