Why not livestock in your rotation?

Cowcorn · Dec 6, 2019

I know things are different over in the UK but if i had one of your big farms instesd of my patchwork quilt spread over 3 parishes i would grass half of it down and throw up a 30 point parlour and start milking 300 + jersey crosscows on the grass system. It puts arable cropping in the halfpenny place . Mega money to be made when milk price is good. Arable farming is a disease most of us are beyond help . Modern grass based dairy farming is a highly profitable business
Many young bucks over here after taking over the farm are going out of cropping and into dairying . One of them said the are following the money and who can blame them ?? But someday the churn will flow over and then the shite will hit the fan but meanwhile .........

Sonoftheheir · Dec 6, 2019

Haven’t got the labour for it.

sometimes I get nostalgic about feeding the pigs on a Sunday or Christmas Day, then I remember the downsides.

yes we miss the pig muck.

F&M, poor prices, not enough animals to make it pay, more and more paperwork, places to sell them getting further and further away put pay to that job here.

DRC · Dec 6, 2019

We contract reared 160 dairy heifers for one farm for over 30 years, and also ran our own flock of sheep.
workman retired, dad got older, i ended up doing it 7 days a week, so first the ewes went, then in 2010 i decided i had enough of the cattle. I do however, now have a muck for straw plus slurry deal, with a neighbouring pig farm, and have tack sheep on stubble turnips and a small acreage of grass. I would like to grow more grass again, but it's hard to make much from selling silage bales if paying a contractor to do most of the operation. I would consider a grass option linked to an enviro scheme in the future, as long as i could take a cut off it at some stage.
I can't see many one man bands like me in my late 50s, wanting the tie of regular stock.

Extreme Optimist · Dec 6, 2019

Interesting. The large Estate next door want to increase the OM content of their soil and are regularly sowing cover crops. I was chatting to the farm manager one day and said would it not be better if the cover crops were grazed in small paddocks. He agreed, but said they didn't want to have a beef herd and didn't have staff interested enough to look after them and the fields weren't fenced.
I now supply the cows and calves, put up electric fencing and manage them day to day. All the estate do is supply the cover crop/grazing. I had a meeting with them recently, and they appear pleased with the results and are talking about extending it.
I would say that there has to be a lot of trust between both parties and the appreciation that both need to make something out of it. For example, if the weather is very wet, I will move the cows and calves back onto my land (they are right next door) as the plant population of the cover crop is not great enough to stand a hammering and I am very aware not to damage their soil structure. Have been doing it for 3 years now and as far as I know, both of us are happy.

D14 · Dec 6, 2019

The Ruminant said:
The potential benefits of livestock in an arable rotation are well documented - good blackgrass control, reduced fertiliser usage, increased soil health, drainage and fertility. But we all face lots of obstacles when thinking about bringing livestock back into the rotation.

If you're all arable/cropping, have you considered it and what are the main reasons you don't have livestock on your farm?

I'm also interested in those who have reintroduced livestock - what obstacles did you have to overcome, have they been so great that you've stopped keeping livestock or are you still persisting with them?

(Livestock can mean cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry etc)

Main reasons are no water into fields, patchy hedges, no fences, can’t get the staff to do it. We have some sheep keep which is helpful but it’s not enough. If we could make it work we’d buy in 2000 lambs to grow on each year as I think it would benefit the whole system. Because we can’t do this for the reasons mentioned above we have started selling standing crops of grass for silage and hay as well as letting land for maize.

The Ruminant · Dec 6, 2019

D14 said:
Main reasons are no water into fields, patchy hedges, no fences, can’t get the staff to do it. We have some sheep keep which is helpful but it’s not enough. If we could make it work we’d buy in 2000 lambs to grow on each year as I think it would benefit the whole system. Because we can’t do this for the reasons mentioned above we have started selling standing crops of grass for silage and hay as well as letting land for maize.

Interesting, thanks - which part of the UK are you in?

rob1 · Dec 6, 2019

with the ever increasing loud noises about veganism etc I cant see there being a market for all these animals, I would have thought grass leys to feed a digester would be a better bet, a small group of farmers geting together to invest in one perhaps together with a broiler unit which could consume some of the arable products as well

HarryB97 · Dec 6, 2019

We have been all arable for nearly the last 40 years but when I left school I worked for a neighbour for several years who had sheep, pigs and arable and really enjoyed the variety. Two years on back at home we are currently at 200 head of cattle all bought in as calves and sold as strong stores and just over 100 ewes but increasing to 200. The hardest bit by far is the capital required to start up and getting through the first few years. Last year the return from the cattle was good but this year it's near enough break even. The sheep require little capital and land and run them selves fairly easily. With stock you also have the issue of labour, for me it's not an issue and I work everyday anyway but if you are paying staff you have issues of holiday cover and over time etc. All our grass leys are 3-4 years leys which is massivley helping with an awful black grass population as well as resting the land and improving the fertillity and organic matter. Even though stock does make less than arable you can reduce machinery numbers and size as well as expensive inputs with more grass in the rotation. We can also justify a wider range of break crops and alternative crops with the stock. We get the muck, better break crops as well as spreading risk. The paper work takes some learning but 99% of keeping stock is easily learnt and straight forward. If you are on light land for instance 3-500 ewes can easily be managed part time as most days it's just a drive round to check them then roots over the winter so very little capital and risk all done with temprary electric and a water bowser.

DRC · Dec 6, 2019

rob1 said:
with the ever increasing loud noises about veganism etc I cant see there being a market for all these animals, I would have thought grass leys to feed a digester would be a better bet, a small group of farmers geting together to invest in one perhaps together with a broiler unit which could consume some of the arable products as well

You have to remember just how many nutrients cuts of grass take from the field . Unless you’ve got slurry or similar to put back on, you might be increasing the OM, but depleting P and K

Brisel · Dec 6, 2019

The Ruminant said:
The potential benefits of livestock in an arable rotation are well documented - good blackgrass control, reduced fertiliser usage, increased soil health, drainage and fertility. But we all face lots of obstacles when thinking about bringing livestock back into the rotation.

If you're all arable/cropping, have you considered it and what are the main reasons you don't have livestock on your farm?

I'm also interested in those who have reintroduced livestock - what obstacles did you have to overcome, have they been so great that you've stopped keeping livestock or are you still persisting with them?

(Livestock can mean cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry etc)

We're in the process of searching for a new grazier to take on our meadows, arable reversion and some rotational arable grazing as a joint venture. Why?

Diversify our land use and break up the landscape
Improve our soils, depreciated by decades of arable cropping, ploughing and selling straw as well as grain
Manage some chalk grassland restoration which requires grazing
We don't have the staff or skills to do livestock properly. We're fully employed on arable and a considerable conservation project already and these are our core competencies. This is an opportunity for an arable and conservation specialist to work with a livestock specialist
We want someone with skin in the game rather than employ a stockman and do it all ourselves
Joint venture - we put the grass and infrastructure in. They put the animals and labour in. Cheaper for a new entrant who requires less capital
Buildings are old but serviceable though we are aiming for 365 day holistic planned grazing. Housing is just for emergencies or young stock. The yard is for processing groups for drafting etc
Mainly lighter soil types suited to outwintering

Issues;

Lack of profitability in livestock currently, though we would share the risk as well as the reward. Structuring a deal and stand alone business will be key, as will flexibility in managing issues as they arise
Little infrastructure at present. We haven't really had grass on the arable side since 1992 when we stopped milking so there is little provision for water and fencing
365 day grazing will not suit contract finishers who need to be producing finished animals weekly. Winter grazing will slow liveweight gain though with lower overhead costs from not having to spend lots of money on silage, housing, mucking out etc.
Cell grazing will need more fencing and water troughs vs set stocking
What about concentrating arable overheads on a smaller area? Every acre not cropped costs us £152/acre assuming we still get BPS but pay rent on it. That allows for marginal cost savings of fuel, overtime, wearing steel, grain drying & storage. Currently cropping 2100 acres. Taking another 300 acres out isn't a matter of selling one tractor or an implement. Current staffing 2 full time + manager + seasonal casual labour. 300 acres is not 1 labour unit either. Little opportunity to expand the arable locally to spread overheads
Cross compliance. Having a separate business should avoid a penalty for one impacting on the other. We'd hate for an arable cock up to cost the livestock & vice versa
Chalk down land is good for being free draining but a month without rain in the summer and grass growth stops though we do grow turnips for winter keep for a local sheep farmer so these could act as a buffer
How long do we have an arable field in grass for? 5 years isn't really enough especially if we're £££ boundary fencing and laying water pipes yet beyond that if we make the grassland "interesting" and have to do an environmental impact assessment before returning it to arable we may be prevented from doing so but changing goal posts. Less than 5 years becomes expensive grass and it will take that long to make an impact on the soil. 10+ years means it will take 70+ years to get around the farm - not really rotational
Finding the right person who will work with us. The kind of person who has a couple of hundred cattle already will want a FBT and take all the risk/reward. The younger more innovative graziers won't have £200k lying around for buying a herd

No doubt we're trying to have our cake and eat it and I doubt there will be much profit in the job but the aim is to provide an opportunity, improve the long term sustainability of the farmland and spread risk. Are we mad for doing this? We can achieve many of the soil benefits through conservation agriculture. We're already direct drilling and using cover crops funded by Higher Tier Stewardship.

lloyd · Dec 6, 2019

I've got a feeling your going to have a few PMs coming
your way Brisel.
Hopefully off glass half full individuals with plent of energy
who are willing to learn to prosper going forward.
Great opportunity for someone .

JP1 · Dec 6, 2019

Brisel said:
We're in the process of searching for a new grazier to take on our meadows, arable reversion and some rotational arable grazing as a joint venture. Why?

Diversify our land use and break up the landscape

Improve our soils, depreciated by decades of arable cropping, ploughing and selling straw as well as grain

Manage some chalk grassland restoration which requires grazing

We don't have the staff or skills to do livestock properly. We're fully employed on arable and a considerable conservation project already and these are our core competencies. This is an opportunity for an arable and conservation specialist to work with a livestock specialist

We want someone with skin in the game rather than employ a stockman and do it all ourselves

Joint venture - we put the grass and infrastructure in. They put the animals and labour in. Cheaper for a new entrant who requires less capital

Buildings are old but serviceable though we are aiming for 365 day holistic planned grazing. Housing is just for emergencies or young stock. The yard is for processing groups for drafting etc

Mainly lighter soil types suited to outwintering

Issues;

Lack of profitability in livestock currently, though we would share the risk as well as the reward. Structuring a deal and stand alone business will be key, as will flexibility in managing issues as they arise

Little infrastructure at present. We haven't really had grass on the arable side since 1992 when we stopped milking so there is little provision for water and fencing

365 day grazing will not suit contract finishers who need to be producing finished animals weekly. Winter grazing will slow liveweight gain though with lower overhead costs from not having to spend lots of money on silage, housing, mucking out etc.

Cell grazing will need more fencing and water troughs vs set stocking

What about concentrating arable overheads on a smaller area? Every acre not cropped costs us £152/acre assuming we still get BPS but pay rent on it. That allows for marginal cost savings of fuel, overtime, wearing steel, grain drying & storage. Currently cropping 2100 acres. Taking another 300 acres out isn't a matter of selling one tractor or an implement. Current staffing 2 full time + manager + seasonal casual labour. 300 acres is not 1 labour unit either. Little opportunity to expand the arable locally to spread overheads

Cross compliance. Having a separate business should avoid a penalty for one impacting on the other. We'd hate for an arable cock up to cost the livestock & vice versa

Chalk down land is good for being free draining but a month without rain in the summer and grass growth stops though we do grow turnips for winter keep for a local sheep farmer so these could act as a buffer

How long do we have an arable field in grass for? 5 years isn't really enough especially if we're £££ boundary fencing and laying water pipes yet beyond that if we make the grassland "interesting" and have to do an environmental impact assessment before returning it to arable we may be prevented from doing so but changing goal posts. Less than 5 years becomes expensive grass and it will take that long to make an impact on the soil. 10+ years means it will take 70+ years to get around the farm - not really rotational

Finding the right person who will work with us. The kind of person who has a couple of hundred cattle already will want a FBT and take all the risk/reward. The younger more innovative graziers won't have £200k lying around for buying a herd

No doubt we're trying to have our cake and eat it and I doubt there will be much profit in the job but the aim is to provide an opportunity, improve the long term sustainability of the farmland and spread risk. Are we mad for doing this? We can achieve many of the soil benefits through conservation agriculture. We're already direct drilling and using cover crops funded by Higher Tier Stewardship.

Great opportunity for someone

Only downside your way would be TB I imagine

Need a few more visionaries around who don't just want to pocket every sub.

Sometimes I look back and wonder what might have been. I was always keen on outdoor sows and in my college years 82-85 most folks just laughed at me . Now it's almost the default Freedom Foods assured way of doing things

Widgetone · Dec 6, 2019

A number of low input semi or fully organic stockless farmers seem to be introducing sheep onto the farm in recent years. There was an article in the FW the other week iirc.

SteveHants · Dec 6, 2019

rob1 said:
with the ever increasing loud noises about veganism etc I cant see there being a market for all these animals, I would have thought grass leys to feed a digester would be a better bet, a small group of farmers geting together to invest in one perhaps together with a broiler unit which could consume some of the arable products as well

Although they make a noise, vegans account for less than 2% of the population.
Sustainable intensification is going to be the name of the game as more and more land is taken out of production for environmental schemes etc. Then, the prospect of sheep on arable will look even better than it already does.

I used to get a good amount of winter grazing from arable farms, my limiting factor when it came to the size of flock I could run was summer grazing.

SteveHants · Dec 6, 2019

Brisel said:
We're in the process of searching for a new grazier to take on our meadows, arable reversion and some rotational arable grazing as a joint venture. Why?

Diversify our land use and break up the landscape

Improve our soils, depreciated by decades of arable cropping, ploughing and selling straw as well as grain

Manage some chalk grassland restoration which requires grazing

We don't have the staff or skills to do livestock properly. We're fully employed on arable and a considerable conservation project already and these are our core competencies. This is an opportunity for an arable and conservation specialist to work with a livestock specialist

We want someone with skin in the game rather than employ a stockman and do it all ourselves

Joint venture - we put the grass and infrastructure in. They put the animals and labour in. Cheaper for a new entrant who requires less capital

Buildings are old but serviceable though we are aiming for 365 day holistic planned grazing. Housing is just for emergencies or young stock. The yard is for processing groups for drafting etc

Mainly lighter soil types suited to outwintering

Issues;

Lack of profitability in livestock currently, though we would share the risk as well as the reward. Structuring a deal and stand alone business will be key, as will flexibility in managing issues as they arise

Little infrastructure at present. We haven't really had grass on the arable side since 1992 when we stopped milking so there is little provision for water and fencing

365 day grazing will not suit contract finishers who need to be producing finished animals weekly. Winter grazing will slow liveweight gain though with lower overhead costs from not having to spend lots of money on silage, housing, mucking out etc.

Cell grazing will need more fencing and water troughs vs set stocking

What about concentrating arable overheads on a smaller area? Every acre not cropped costs us £152/acre assuming we still get BPS but pay rent on it. That allows for marginal cost savings of fuel, overtime, wearing steel, grain drying & storage. Currently cropping 2100 acres. Taking another 300 acres out isn't a matter of selling one tractor or an implement. Current staffing 2 full time + manager + seasonal casual labour. 300 acres is not 1 labour unit either. Little opportunity to expand the arable locally to spread overheads

Cross compliance. Having a separate business should avoid a penalty for one impacting on the other. We'd hate for an arable cock up to cost the livestock & vice versa

Chalk down land is good for being free draining but a month without rain in the summer and grass growth stops though we do grow turnips for winter keep for a local sheep farmer so these could act as a buffer

How long do we have an arable field in grass for? 5 years isn't really enough especially if we're £££ boundary fencing and laying water pipes yet beyond that if we make the grassland "interesting" and have to do an environmental impact assessment before returning it to arable we may be prevented from doing so but changing goal posts. Less than 5 years becomes expensive grass and it will take that long to make an impact on the soil. 10+ years means it will take 70+ years to get around the farm - not really rotational

Finding the right person who will work with us. The kind of person who has a couple of hundred cattle already will want a FBT and take all the risk/reward. The younger more innovative graziers won't have £200k lying around for buying a herd

No doubt we're trying to have our cake and eat it and I doubt there will be much profit in the job but the aim is to provide an opportunity, improve the long term sustainability of the farmland and spread risk. Are we mad for doing this? We can achieve many of the soil benefits through conservation agriculture. We're already direct drilling and using cover crops funded by Higher Tier Stewardship.

Were I still in the sheep game, I would have been very interested in that, were the price right. I'm not sure I'd have ever invested in cattle though.

Suffolk Serf · Dec 6, 2019

You're up to something @The Ruminant, what with asking about biodiesel elsewhere and having been awol from the forum for a bit. Good to see!

rob1 · Dec 6, 2019

silverfox said:
You have to remember just how many nutrients cuts of grass take from the field . Unless you’ve got slurry or similar to put back on, you might be increasing the OM, but depleting P and K

But getting back the digestate would recycle those nutrients, yes there is a risk of BG coming in that way but thats why I suggested a small group of farmers investing in it so they have control, I feel that too many have just jumped on the willy waving roundabout on how many acres they can farm instead of looking at profit and the future .

SteveHants said:
Although they make a noise, vegans account for less than 2% of the population.
Sustainable intensification is going to be the name of the game as more and more land is taken out of production for environmental schemes etc. Then, the prospect of sheep on arable will look even better than it already does.

I used to get a good amount of winter grazing from arable farms, my limiting factor when it came to the size of flock I could run was summer grazing.

While vegans are small in numbers I think people in general are eating less meat, maybe the future of sheep is in wool production rather than meat, clothes are beginning to be attacked as being environmentally bad when made from man made fabrics perhaps there is an opportunity for merino wool for example to grab a bigger market.
There are lots of opportunities out there BUT and it is a very big but farmers need to drive these changes and remain in control not just sell to a middle man who creams the profit off.
Farming is going to go in two directions, 1 The mass produced commodity sector probably tied into processors/supermarkets who will dictate everything, large turnover but tiny margin. 2 Those who identify a market,perhaps not a food based one,that they can supply using a USP, small turnover but far higher margin,

teslacoils · Dec 6, 2019

I don't mind having sheep here so long as they are other people's sheep. Quite a few flying flocks in arable lincs now.b

Flat 10 · Dec 6, 2019

Here i would like stock. But lack skills. Land very spread out. All rented so not putting fences up. No water.

roscoe erf · Dec 6, 2019

Slick said:
Dirty smelly things, who's going to be looking after them during the shooting/skiing season?

your peasants

Why not livestock in your rotation?

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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