TFF Group buys ?

Clive · Dec 10, 2019

If we set something up that leveraged the power of forum group buying to achieve better prices how many of you would use it?

Not a traditional buying group as such in that you would neither have to pay to join or commit to buy exclusively from it but more the offer of products at a price which at certain volume thresholds got cheaper and cheaper

I would have to give the detail a lot more thought but its an idea I've had in the back of my head for some time, if there is enough interest we could look at developing the idea further

I'm thinking ag chem and maybe fertilizers could be a simple place to start but, in theory, could be extended to anything, fuel, utilities, and even farm machinery ? could something like this work and help us all achieve lower input prices?

yellowbelly · Dec 10, 2019

Good idea in principal.
How would you know what volumes of Roundup, 20:10:10, Fendts, etc you are talking about when you talk to manufacturers to negotiate terms?

Don't wish to be negative, but like you say it needs a lot if thought.

With a potential 40,000 members, don't forget there's going to be someone needed to coordinate all this at TFF Towers which will add another bit to the final cost (I'm assuming you're not diversifying into philanthropy anytime soon

)

teslacoils · Dec 10, 2019

I suspect that many here are already in a buying group. Those who arent probably won't do this. Those who are will probably stick with them.

I know some see buying groups as scary, but mine is audited, regulated as a co-op, membership was £250, and charges are miniscule and based on turnover. No requirement to buy anything through them. It's not done bloated, out of touch organisation.

I'd support any way to get richer, but who are you aiming at - the logistically easy big boys who will happily take 15 loads of urea in June, or the smaller farmer who would benefit most from severing the "but we've always delt with X - he's like a friend to me" links?

Farmer_Joe · Dec 10, 2019

surely if you could negotiate a decent discount you could take a few percent as a fee, if you can supply it cheaper with that buying power even on those terms we would be fools not to use it, but im sure some people would not

That alos over low and high users rather than been stuffed with a fixed fee

I looked at buying groups before but there fee was a killer as im a failry low input system, so it was not really worth it.

make sure people are on direct debit but i would definitely use it for fuel and fert and to be fair anything i could get cheaper from you !

Cowabunga · Dec 10, 2019

Fertiliser and cattle feed are my two main bulk inputs. Fertiliser has probably got the best prospects in regard to really big bulk buying and discounts, although I have zero idea of the margins that are on these products or whether there are 'gentleman's agreements' not to undercut each other too much currently.

teslacoils · Dec 10, 2019

The big £££ would come from container loads of chem from the producer, or boats full of urea. And the logistics and risk for the latter probably too large.

Certainly pallets of osr from Eastern Europe looked a good discount before the pound died.....and osr went to shyte.

chas · Dec 10, 2019

If there’s a chance of a saving them yeah count me in

delilah · Dec 10, 2019

I know nothing of the detail but there's definitely something out there for normal householders to commit to buy, say, a kettle, or a garden shed, or whatever, and they all benefit from the bulk discount, what you're suggesting is essentially the same for farmers ? Someone on here will know the scheme i'm talking about, just copy that ?

Bipper · Dec 10, 2019

Suppose the issue would be delivery to different parts of the uk, but if you can get around that then go for it.

Need to have a decent range to suit all needs, a lot fall down by being tied to one supplier and not being able to offer the specifics that are needed, just the next best thing.

juke · Dec 10, 2019

if its cheaper we would use the service, we used to use buying group but found shopping as a one man band has smashed the myth of buying groups.

Clive · Dec 10, 2019

yellowbelly said:
Good idea in principal.
How would you know what volumes of Roundup, 20:10:10, Fendts, etc you are talking about when you talk to manufacturers to negotiate terms?

Don't wish to be negative, but like you say it needs a lot if thought.

With a potential 40,000 members, don't forget there's going to be someone needed to coordinate all this at TFF Towers which will add another bit to the final cost (I'm assuming you're not diversifying into philanthropy anytime soon )

ok - thinking out loud here re how it might work

a product gets listed - let use a fungicide like adexar as an example and say it can be bought at £30/ L by an individual farmer

We then have maybe 3 points of commitment - if we can order 100 between us the price falls to say £29, 500 £28, 1000 say £27 etc - there is also a simple "spot price, not volume dependant that is the same £30 for those wanting it instantly rather than waiting for the volume deal

If you like the price you see you commit your requirement - at this point, a deposit is taken, refundable if that volume threshold doesn't ever get reached but binding if it does and no one being expected to pay for the product until delivery (possibly with credit available at cost of course)

It would, of course, need coordination so would not be without costs but with technology that cost would be FAR lower than traditional buying group costs and with potentially 40,000 members TFF could have MUCH greater buying power than any of them?

............ as I say thinking out loud, lots of detail and complexity to consider but in principle?

Clive · Dec 10, 2019

teslacoils said:
The big £££ would come from container loads of chem from the producer, or boats full of urea. And the logistics and risk for the latter probably too large.

Certainly pallets of osr from Eastern Europe looked a good discount before the pound died.....and osr went to shyte.

I think we could do that actually with a bit of tech and some admin

There is massive buying clout here on TFF between us, all we need to do is have a way to organize that and leverage it. I know from conversations with manufacturers and distributers over the last few years that we could commit to volumes we could get much-reduced prices

It only what buying groups do right now but not very efficiently really and at potentially much smaller scale than we could do

Clive · Dec 10, 2019

Bipper said:
Suppose the issue would be delivery to different parts of the uk, but if you can get around that then go for it.

Need to have a decent range to suit all needs, a lot fall down by being tied to one supplier and not being able to offer the specifics that are needed, just the next best thing.

Delivery would not be a problem

It would be hard to offer everything for the start though so maybe would begin with specific deals on specific products and bud from there

Clive · Dec 10, 2019

Farmer_Joe said:
surely if you could negotiate a decent discount you could take a few percent as a fee, if you can supply it cheaper with that buying power even on those terms we would be fools not to use it, but im sure some people would not

That alos over low and high users rather than been stuffed with a fixed fee

I looked at buying groups before but there fee was a killer as im a failry low input system, so it was not really worth it.

make sure people are on direct debit but i would definitely use it for fuel and fert and to be fair anything i could get cheaper from you !

I'm thinking no membership fee so no commitment like a buying group has - the cost of running covered by a % on any deals done which should be minimal if set up super efficiently and included within the group buy prices anyway

You only commit to a group buy when you decide its a deal you want to be part off, at which point I think a deposit has to be paid to stop people backing out and spoiling the deal for the others involved

teslacoils · Dec 10, 2019

I think you would be better off aiming at approaching larger growers here direct and aiming to get some bulk deals for either widely used generics, or otherwise priced fixed stuff like crawler, avadex, proline etc.

That way you can get a large order with minimal logistical hassle to see if the idea works. A simpler way to get to a big order would be knowing you could get a shipping container full with 20 growers than 200, and work from there.

Clive · Dec 10, 2019

teslacoils said:
I think you would be better off aiming at approaching larger growers here direct and aiming to get some bulk deals for either widely used generics, or otherwise priced fixed stuff like crawler, avadex, proline etc.

That way you can get a large order with minimal logistical hassle to see if the idea works. A simpler way to get to a big order would be knowing you could get a shipping container full with 20 growers than 200, and work from there.

we could do that but it would offer nothing over and above any buying group that already exists

I think this should be open to all, all the small orders soon add up

I once asked a large manufacture how much I need to spend before they would allow me to open an account directly with them, it wasn't as much as you think and would open the door to the potential 20-30% type saving we all need

ollie989898 · Dec 10, 2019

Clive I will never understand your fascination with ag-chem. I really can't. The reason the bulk of it is is distributor led is because they are the ones that pre-order the material months before it is even manufactured and because they are prepared to sell, store and then collect the monies for it- none of which can be done for nothing.

If you want to have that kind of grasp of the marketplace then you will have to similarly commit to forecasting and ordering X thousand cans of something near 12 months ahead of schedule possibly and then getting it moved and collect the money for it.

If you ask me it would be far far simpler to collect up a few hundred farmers and gather together a few thousand tonnes/loads of fertiliser which of course is what the manufacturers of the stuff already do.

Farma Parma · Dec 10, 2019

Am deffo interested in diff sectors of better purchasing who isnt.
Not currently in any buying groups & without mentioning any names of them i had & still do have the chance to join a big one
but what concerns me with all the good points of being in such a thing its the long standing relationships i like many on here have built up
with local folks that work for these Unnamed Big Farming Input suppliers across the UK & what you stand to loose come a friday night or weekend out of hours
& you need to make that call to one of these people who lets face it will & do go the extra mile for a lot of us.
Dealing with a Buying group 100's of miles away with folk your never likely to meet just isnt the same

But if you have a better way of doing this Clive esp with Fert Inputs & poss Machinery savings
Spare parts esp Genuine Filters n the likes is a big personal Gripe i have being charged in a lot of cases double what we should be.

Iam all ears to what your suggesting
Bring it on

Farma Parma · Dec 10, 2019

ollie989898 said:
Clive I will never understand your fascination with ag-chem. I really can't. The reason the bulk of it is is distributor led is because they are the ones that pre-order the material months before it is even manufactured and because they are prepared to sell, store and then collect the monies for it- none of which can be done for nothing.

If you want to have that kind of grasp of the marketplace then you will have to similarly commit to forecasting and ordering X thousand cans of something near 12 months ahead of schedule possibly and then getting it moved and collect the money for it.

If you ask me it would be far far simpler to collect up a few hundred farmers and gather together a few thousand tonnes/loads of fertiliser which of course is what the manufacturers of the stuff already do.

Agchem boys must have aircraft hangers full of the stuff thats not been applied this autumn then. how are they standing that i wonder?
one of them told me there in for a lean 2years coz of all this rain across the UK just since harvest 19

teslacoils · Dec 10, 2019

Just sayin.

From your pov, a 25 percent saving from an order of X bulk over 30 farms Vs 300 farms? Getting the money, holding the money, invoicing, vat, returns.

It may be simpler to start with fewer numbers of farmers to hit the critical volumes.

TFF Group buys ?

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0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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