Is there any future in suckler cows ?

som farmer · Feb 2, 2020

M-J-G said:
What kind of dairy heifer?

xbred, and some smaller hf's, chap who had the calves, pleased as punch. Wouldn't worry about doing it again, for us, the most important bit, is easy calvings. And calf worth a bit more than a jersey !!!!!

marco · Feb 2, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Health is the big one for us, hard to quantify but we basically have zero health costs.
A few hours in an area mean all flies and parasites are left behind the mob, they aren't picking around their manure. The earthworms and birds migrate behind the mob "undoing" everything

As you say it's time, but never needing to yard a bunch of lambs to dose them with anthelmintics is a plus, most all actives have negative effects on soil life. Most all fertilisers and potions, likewise.

Our next year plan is to remove the rest of the permanent fencing and concrete troughs, replace 18 paddocks with 430 quarter-acre grazing cells (each 4 served by a small plastic drinker) which will have a payback time of around 10 months, then all the surplus fence materials can be sold and the time factor drops to next to nothing.
As I mentioned somewhere, 2 hours per hectare is the goal including admin
10% ROCE is the other goal, eg $80k p.a. off $800,000 of assets.
This past 12 months has been a revelation as to what is possible, and just how limiting (financially) capital stock actually can be

Have you any good links, books, YouTube videos on cell grazing?

Kiwi Pete · Feb 2, 2020

marco said:
Have you any good links, books, YouTube videos on cell grazing?

Yeah, there are literally thousands of resources out there.
But IMO it's something you learn best by making your own mistakes and observations - people can tell you all sorts but until you actually DIY that's all rather pointless, like this thread really!

Kiwi Pete · Feb 2, 2020

som farmer said:
it all takes a bit of time to get your head round something that is so different, being confined indoors a lot, i'm an avid fan of utube (b all on tv), so get the opportunity, to see how else farmers farm. Land, is the same all over, it is rain, and temp, that alters it. Chap in the USA greg judy, runs 1600 s cows, with sheep and goats as well, haven't worked out the latter 2, but his cattle, are run in large mobs, cows bulls and calves, 2/3/400 or more. The cow weight is 450kg, this is to stop poaching, each mob moved every day, his grass system differs from ours, in so much as he is only interested in the top third of the plant, we are more interested in the middle/bottom. No worming, no fly control, no need, he has pointed out odd bought cows covered in flies, alongside others with none. His method of regenerating knackered grass is impressive, as are his cattle, there is nobody on here who would dispute that, they look fantastic.
KP, said about footprints, the lighter the animal, shallower the print = less damage, simple when you look at it like that. His grazing is based on moving every day, on a 60 day rotation, certainly not so practical over here, perhaps it could be on the rougher uplands, but the principles are simple, cheap and profitable, and could apply over here.

The biggest difference is that "conservation" is the name of the game for us, not "utilisation" because in that paradigm you are literally losing control of your business and giving that to the salesmen and weather-Gods.
If you only leave a two-inch green fuzz on your fields, it isn't gonna hold up much of a cow if you get 4 inches of rain overnight. Maybe a sheep?

I don't rotationally graze anymore for that reason, maybe for a couple of spring months; planned grazing is different again.... it's actually similar in many respects to "set-stocking-with-constant-shifting" but the grass curve is pushed to the end of the growing season and maintained in leafy condition by the stock and following the chart.

Animal numbers are adjusted to suit the season, which many people just cannot see working for them, as they aren't able to get their costs down to that point that they can sell them at a profit at the wrong time

Bossfarmer · Feb 3, 2020

hillman said:
Interesting reading through the posts and as pre usual let’s blame Larry for all our the problems did arise , the man hasn’t got to where he is by refusing new ideas or willing to try them , he runs a highly efficient operation, how many suckler farmers can say that ?... let’s be honest here we !

On mention of paddocks it’s seems like you have to sign your life away and can never get it back ! Try it get 1group a few culls even and split up a field with poly stakes and a reel , and see how it goes , you don’t need fancy roadways or high class fencing , if it works well and good if not so be it , but it should work , you should grow more grass for same inputs , you might even have surplus which you can wrap for bales , if you find it works and realise you potentially could carry more stock no one is saying you have too, you could cut back on fert, plough more of in that system , maybe buy stores be it sheep or cattle to run around , you don’t have to spend a fortune here and heck if it doesn’t work you can stick the stakes /wire/fencer on eBay

As farmers we always look for others to blame for our woes, but in probably 95% of the times we can /could do more to “become more efficient “ (Christ I hate those words) but sadly it is true

I can see the roll of eyes and smoke coming from ears as folk read down through this , negativity becomes complacency and sadly it becomes a dangerous downward spiral, yes it good to vent but also be careful we don’t put ourselves out of the game altogether

out of interest when paddocks get away from cattle in summer and you decide to bale/wrap it do you ted/rake it etc? wont there be a lot of dung in the silage?

Kiwi Pete · Feb 3, 2020

Bossfarmer said:
out of interest when paddocks get away from cattle in summer and you decide to bale/wrap it do you ted/rake it etc? wont there be a lot of dung in the silage?

There certainly would be, speaking from what I see behind them they absolutely plaster down anything that's "got away".

That's what feeds your soil, though, the soil life is designed to recycle it - they aren't designed to cycle manure as much, which is why soils get unbalanced if you take (frequently) silage off and replace it with muck/slurry.
This can collapse the structure and then it's "hello, docks"... acidifies the soil, because the fungi that would be repurposing that brown grass are outnumbered by bacteria.
The fungal fraction are mostly responsible for humus production, humus is long polymers of Carbon, which free hydrogens can attach to and this regulates pH...soil pH being a measure of how many free Hydrogens are in the soil solution, amongst other things.

We really struggle to maintain enough brown litter in our sward because the soils are so full of life, the soil simply gobbles it up in a month - which is why you'll notice nearly all my grass pictures have a bit of tough stuff left behind the stock

- it's what you leave behind them that makes all the difference to next grazing, and it wants smashed

hillman · Feb 9, 2020

Bossfarmer said:
out of interest when paddocks get away from cattle in summer and you decide to bale/wrap it do you ted/rake it etc? wont there be a lot of dung in the silage?

mow high , but remember it’s generally 21-25 days since grazed so pats should be broken down relativity well if your soil is working, mower spreads it behind I then just rake up for baler

Chae1 · Feb 9, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
There certainly would be, speaking from what I see behind them they absolutely plaster down anything that's "got away".

That's what feeds your soil, though, the soil life is designed to recycle it - they aren't designed to cycle manure as much, which is why soils get unbalanced if you take (frequently) silage off and replace it with muck/slurry.
This can collapse the structure and then it's "hello, docks"... acidifies the soil, because the fungi that would be repurposing that brown grass are outnumbered by bacteria.
The fungal fraction are mostly responsible for humus production, humus is long polymers of Carbon, which free hydrogens can attach to and this regulates pH...soil pH being a measure of how many free Hydrogens are in the soil solution, amongst other things.

We really struggle to maintain enough brown litter in our sward because the soils are so full of life, the soil simply gobbles it up in a month - which is why you'll notice nearly all my grass pictures have a bit of tough stuff left behind the stock View attachment 856452- it's what you leave behind them that makes all the difference to next grazing, and it wants smashed

I will put up the maps but had the field we rotationally graze gps mapped for n,p.k and mag last week.

Field next to it has been continually cut for silage it was sampled too.. What you're saying about docks is already obvious in field raped for silage.

Shall be interesting.

Werzle · Feb 9, 2020

Docks have always grown where dirty water is spread , seed seems to survive in the lagoons.

Farmer Fin · Feb 9, 2020

Jackov Altraids said:
I absolutely trust your expertise and very much appreciate you willingness to share.
There are many reasons why I don't believe I could take rotational/cell grazing on to the extent which seems to have the best results.
I think it may not be fully appreciated how much skill is involved in set stocking for optimum performance.
If you have any heavy/ wet pasture, do you include it in the rotation regardless or do you manage it so it is used at its driest?

You correct about the skills for set stocking. The grass research farm in Devon (name escapes me, North Wyke?) have a long term experiment going looking at set stocking. They insist if done correctly it’s more productive. However to do it correctly grass has to be maintained within a set height range and to do this the number of stock in the field have to be altered and bits of the field taken out for silage / hay. The reason it doesn’t work is people don’t change the stock levels and fencing off small areas in fields to then cut and bale is a ball ache. it was from this that rotationally grazing was born as it is easier to manage and nearly as productive as true set stocking.

Kiwi Pete · Feb 9, 2020

Farmer Fin said:
You correct about the skills for set stocking. The grass research farm in Devon (name escapes me, North Wyke?) have a long term experiment going looking at set stocking. They insist if done correctly it’s more productive. However to do it correctly grass has to be maintained within a set height range and to do this the number of stock in the field have to be altered and bits of the field taken out for silage / hay. The reason it doesn’t work is people don’t change the stock levels and fencing off small areas in fields to then cut and bale is a ball ache. it was from this that rotationally grazing was born as it is easier to manage and nearly as productive as true set stocking.

That's dead right, failure to adjust stocking rate is also the main failing of rotational grazing systems around the world.
In fact, it's probably "worse" because it is easier to see over/understocking in a continual grazing system, by eye?

Henarar · Feb 9, 2020

Farmer Fin said:
You correct about the skills for set stocking. The grass research farm in Devon (name escapes me, North Wyke?) have a long term experiment going looking at set stocking. They insist if done correctly it’s more productive. However to do it correctly grass has to be maintained within a set height range and to do this the number of stock in the field have to be altered and bits of the field taken out for silage / hay. The reason it doesn’t work is people don’t change the stock levels and fencing off small areas in fields to then cut and bale is a ball ache. it was from this that rotationally grazing was born as it is easier to manage and nearly as productive as true set stocking.

So they compere apples and pears down at north wyke these days

Farmer Keith · Feb 9, 2020

hillman said:
mow high , but remember it’s generally 21-25 days since grazed so pats should be broken down relativity well if your soil is working, mower spreads it behind I then just rake up for baler

Absolutely do not mow high, you’re trying to reset your paddock to grow more quality grass for the next rotation. Wants cut back to as near 1500 as you can get it or you’ll never get back to that residual all season.

hillman · Feb 9, 2020

Farmer Keith said:
Absolutely do not mow high, you’re trying to reset your paddock to grow more quality grass for the next rotation. Wants cut back to as near 1500 as you can get it or you’ll never get back to that residual all season.

mow high enough to clear pats , it’s not shave the ? Out of it which many do if cutting for silage ,

Chae1 · Feb 9, 2020

Farmer Fin said:
You correct about the skills for set stocking. The grass research farm in Devon (name escapes me, North Wyke?) have a long term experiment going looking at set stocking. They insist if done correctly it’s more productive. However to do it correctly grass has to be maintained within a set height range and to do this the number of stock in the field have to be altered and bits of the field taken out for silage / hay. The reason it doesn’t work is people don’t change the stock levels and fencing off small areas in fields to then cut and bale is a ball ache. it was from this that rotationally grazing was born as it is easier to manage and nearly as productive as true set stocking.

Are you not tempted to start keeping cattle?

Farmer Fin · Feb 9, 2020

Chae1 said:
Are you not tempted to start keeping cattle?

Yep. Unfortunately we have no fences, water trough, etc and more importantly no suitable sheds for winter housing. With the cost to set up the infrastructure and purchase stock I would never see a decent return, compared to arable. I know people will jump with single wire, moveable troughs etc which yes would be doable, but with the best will in the world we couldn’t get away will less than 3 month housing and we would just make way to much damage on our soils out wintering. Also I like my weekends to myself! I have looked it long and hard since I got home, but I just can’t get the numbers to stack up. If you guys were out would you go back in?
Plus it’s much easier being a keyboard expert ?

Chae1 · Feb 9, 2020

Farmer Fin said:
Yep. Unfortunately we have no fences, water trough, etc and more importantly no suitable sheds for winter housing. With the cost to set up the infrastructure and purchase stock I would never see a decent return, compared to arable. I know people will jump with single wire, moveable troughs etc which yes would be doable, but with the best will in the world we couldn’t get away will less than 3 month housing and we would just make way to much damage on our soils out wintering. Also I like my weekends to myself! I have looked it long and hard since I got home, but I just can’t get the numbers to stack up. If you guys were out would you go back in?
Plus it’s much easier being a keyboard expert ?

No definitely not. The level of investment to get started is huge as you say. Between stock, fences, sheds. Without a stable return on money. One of my friends is putting up a big shed at moment I've been meaning to ask him how he's going to pay it back.

Our land isn't really suited to anything else, if we went all arable yields would be terrible by 7-8 years. It needs muck and grass in rotation. Perhaps break crops like osr and beans would provide similar benefits.

Perhaps i need to be looking at different methods of establishment, crop rotation and soil structure, fertility might stand up longer.

Farmer Keith · Feb 9, 2020

hillman said:
mow high enough to clear pats , it’s not shave the ? Out of it which many do if cutting for silage ,

We come across exactly the opposite here when walking farms with the discussion group in the summer, farmers and contractors mowing too high to maximise silage quality but failing to clear out the bottom of your pasture then subsequently the cows won’t graze back below the previous mown height.

In practice you should be mowing well after the cows anyways so your pats are dry and the muck is just left in the bottom of the feeders when you feed the bales out.

The primary reason for mowing is to reset residuals after all.

Farmer Fin · Feb 9, 2020

Chae1 said:
No definitely not. The level of investment to get started is huge as you say. Between stock, fences, sheds. Without a stable return on money. One of my friends is putting up a big shed at moment I've been meaning to ask him how he's going to pay it back.

Our land isn't really suited to anything else, if we went all arable yields would be terrible by 7-8 years. It needs muck and grass in rotation. Perhaps break crops like osr and beans would provide similar benefits.

Perhaps i need to be looking at different methods of establishment, crop rotation and soil structure, fertility might stand up longer.

It is a difficult question to answer and one that I am also pondering. The fact is up here spring barley works, both in growing and markets. Yes there is a market for wheat but getting it combined can be a challenge, no market for beans and struggle to get them to grow. OSR works as long as it’s in in good time. Plough and press then one pass is reliable and not that expensive compared to some of these other systems. From what I have seen no till doesn’t really suit spring cropping and we can’t grow winter cover crops (tried some this year). There is a guy with a Claydon near Inverurie. Not sure he is any better off financially for the switch.
I know this is a bit off tangent, but it’s part of the initial question as of no suckers what else do you do with the farm?

Hilly · Feb 9, 2020

Farmer Fin said:
It is a difficult question to answer and one that I am also pondering. The fact is up here spring barley works, both in growing and markets. Yes there is a market for wheat but getting it combined can be a challenge, no market for beans and struggle to get them to grow. OSR works as long as it’s in in good time. Plough and press then one pass is reliable and not that expensive compared to some of these other systems. From what I have seen no till doesn’t really suit spring cropping and we can’t grow winter cover crops (tried some this year). There is a guy with a Claydon near Inverurie. Not sure he is any better off financially for the switch.
I know this is a bit off tangent, but it’s part of the initial question as of no suckers what else do you do with the farm?

B n b pigs ?

Is there any future in suckler cows ?

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