Reduction rates for BPS 2021

Neddy flanders · Feb 27, 2020

from 2021 is the BPS being funded by the treasury, or still Europe?
what reference figure is used, the 2020 claim, or whatever acreage you farm in 2021 or 2022 etc?
is the reference amount the Euro amount that the EU have been using or a Sterling figure and what exchange rate is used?

B'o'B · Feb 27, 2020

Neddy flanders said:
from 2021 is the BPS being funded by the treasury, or still Europe?
what reference figure is used, the 2020 claim, or whatever acreage you farm in 2021 or 2022 etc?
is the reference amount the Euro amount that the EU have been using or a Sterling figure and what exchange rate is used?

Treasury from now.

ajd132 · Feb 27, 2020

We need a new culture in agriculture...

When I read about the NFU’s plans to hold a national rally of farmers in London on March 25 I have to admit my shoulders sagged. Is this really the best way to promote and protect our industry? The idea behind the rally is to build the brand for British agriculture.

www.linkedin.com

well worth a read...

Derrick Hughes · Feb 27, 2020

Gedd said:
Will you be able to take the golden handshake and carry on farming sub free or do you have to get out altogether and let someone else have a go

You can be sure the Daffodil Farmer will be on here soon to explain why its totaly uneceptable , truth is hes probably 4 years out on age too qualify

Hilly · Feb 27, 2020

Bossfarmer said:
ive been saying this for years even if you include sub but take out true unpaid/family labour/wifes wages/cottage rents etc then most farms are making a loss, take away subs and these farms would be mad to continue,

the biggest problem is farmers have been encouraged to "diversify" so that they dont rely on returns from actual farming, this in turn means food can be produced cheaper still to public with the farmer using diversified money to live off is this right? meanwhile supermarkets etc take the margin and those farmers without diversification have been left relying on sub, what do you think will happen to the "niche" markets once subs go? its clear they will become oversupplied

I agree, they have given the English hill
Farmers so much sub they won’t need worry though, most of them will
Have had more than enough to retire conforrably now .

livestock 1 · Feb 27, 2020

Hilly said:
I agree, they have given the English hill
Farmers so much sub they won’t need worry though, most of them will
Have had more than enough to retire conforrably now .

Are you sure??

Hilly · Feb 27, 2020

livestock 1 said:
Are you sure??

They have been very generous to the English hill farmer Imo put it that way.

jendan · Feb 27, 2020

Gedd said:
Will you be able to take the golden handshake and carry on farming sub free or do you have to get out altogether and let someone else have a go

Thats exactly what i want to know.If they were to set the age limit for it at say 60,and let you carry on farming sub free,it would be too good to be true,and nearly everyone would do it.They could not stop you working for nothing for your son though(in theory).

livestock 1 · Feb 27, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
You're not forced to take the sub...

You are correct no one is forced.
There are exceptions though. I was told many times that one of the reasons for the continuation of sub was the cost of policing farmers. To control as many farmers as the current subsidy system does would cost as much as the subsidy itself. It’s worth remembering that anyone who claims subsidy is guilty as charged. Most people who don’t claim sub are innocent until proven guilty. Can you imagine the difference in legal costs?
I myself have had three sssi’s imposed on my land. No choice in this and subsequent stocking rates or total de stocking of these areasone case forced upon myself by law. So in other words take a fine or jail or take a hit on the farming value of these areas and some money. No brainer.
It’s ok to say you don’t have to claim bps and farm as you wish but in reality you would stick out like a sore thumb alongside the rest of people who do. It’s happened to me when a moor we graze was put into a scheme on one side of the dividing fence. My part soon came under scrutiny by the overgrazing brigade, although stocking rates hadn’t changed through many generations (on my side)
Same as when I go to the auctions to by breeding cattle or sheep. Should I not claim bps but have to bid against people who do? Should I sell lambs and cattle into a market priced with bps incorporated but not claim it myself?
What would my accountant, bank manager and land agents say to me if I didn’t claim bps?
Would their rates be as much in a non bps world? Would I then be paying the bps incorporated rates but not getting it myself? Same with vet fees, machinery animal meds rents .........

livestock 1 · Feb 27, 2020

Hilly said:
They have been very generous to the English hill farmer Imo put it that way.

There’s not a lot of action on some of these farms now though. We’ve been laughed at for keeping the stock numbers of sheep and cattle since decoupling. Some farms just claim bps and that’s about it. No bps no business left and no money or inclination to start again to re stock. They’ve probably forgotten what to do by now!

Derrick Hughes · Feb 27, 2020

I wish all straw dealers would go on a go slow and forget what to do . Sorry got ahead of myself there . They should be flogged a,100 times and ordered back too work

Hilly · Feb 27, 2020

livestock 1 said:
There’s not a lot of action on some of these farms now though. We’ve been laughed at for keeping the stock numbers of sheep and cattle since decoupling. Some farms just claim bps and that’s about it. No bps no business left and no money or inclination to start again to re stock. They’ve probably forgotten what to do by now!

That’s their fault, I know one gets over 500k year doubt he will even be botherd about very little lol ?

ollie989898 · Feb 27, 2020

I just don't understand the thinking on threads like this. I really do not.

Present situation= subsidies paid, costs risen progressively over the last what, 40 years? End price for finished product leaving farm gate largely static, a problem suffered by many industries.

Now we are faced with the prospect of a drastic overhaul in tax payer support as sums are no longer being paid to land owners unless they meet with other additional requirements. Of course, lets not forget that these sums of money were totally decoupled from production anyway years ago and so should not have figured in anyone's estimation when it came to assessing the profitability of any enterprise.

Surely these scenarios are exactly the same, an enterprise makes money or it doesn't? Or do you want the perpetual continuation of being paid subsidies for a lifetime of something that is otherwise never going to wash it's face? What is the point? Please can you explain what it is you want as it would appear neither the present, past nor future situations meet with agreement?

unlacedgecko · Feb 27, 2020

livestock 1 said:
You are correct no one is forced.
There are exceptions though. I was told many times that one of the reasons for the continuation of sub was the cost of policing farmers. To control as many farmers as the current subsidy system does would cost as much as the subsidy itself. It’s worth remembering that anyone who claims subsidy is guilty as charged. Most people who don’t claim sub are innocent until proven guilty. Can you imagine the difference in legal costs?
I myself have had three sssi’s imposed on my land. No choice in this and subsequent stocking rates or total de stocking of these areasone case forced upon myself by law. So in other words take a fine or jail or take a hit on the farming value of these areas and some money. No brainer.
It’s ok to say you don’t have to claim bps and farm as you wish but in reality you would stick out like a sore thumb alongside the rest of people who do. It’s happened to me when a moor we graze was put into a scheme on one side of the dividing fence. My part soon came under scrutiny by the overgrazing brigade, although stocking rates hadn’t changed through many generations (on my side)
Same as when I go to the auctions to by breeding cattle or sheep. Should I not claim bps but have to bid against people who do? Should I sell lambs and cattle into a market priced with bps incorporated but not claim it myself?
What would my accountant, bank manager and land agents say to me if I didn’t claim bps?
Would their rates be as much in a non bps world? Would I then be paying the bps incorporated rates but not getting it myself? Same with vet fees, machinery animal meds rents .........

You're an independent business owner. The decision to claim bps or not is yours alone. Doesn't matter what the neighbors or accountant say.

I don't claim bps but my fuel etc costs the same. That's why I use a panel Van and fiesta van instead of a pickup.

livestock 1 · Feb 27, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
You're an independent business owner. The decision to claim bps or not is yours alone. Doesn't matter what the neighbors or accountant say.

I don't claim bps but my fuel etc costs the same. That's why I use a panel Van and fiesta van instead of a pickup.

Who mentioned what neighbours say?
Accountant yes.
You wouldn’t get far in a panel van here.
Im trying to explain something to you that you don’t want to know about.
I will try again.
Would your grass keep rates be where they are in a world without bps??
I will give up after this

Hilly · Feb 27, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
You're an independent business owner. The decision to claim bps or not is yours alone. Doesn't matter what the neighbors or accountant say.

I don't claim bps but my fuel etc costs the same. That's why I use a panel Van and fiesta van instead of a pickup.

Just flog two vans with two sets tyres two road tax two insurance two services two mots two lots fuel two everything and get a pickup truth will be probably cheaper anyway .

ollie989898 · Feb 27, 2020

livestock 1 said:
Who mentioned what neighbours say?
Accountant yes.
You wouldn’t get far in a panel van here.
Im trying to explain something to you that you don’t want to know about.
I will try again.
Would your grass keep rates be where they are in a world without bps??
I will give up after this

If the two are interlinked then that surely illustrates the madness that has beset the industry.

People like the Gecko do not know anything about farming when it received any kind of tax payer support. It is anathema to them, not part of their thinking or consciousness. He is not alone either, I have met several people like him. To these people, either a venture 'pencils' or it does not. They will dip in and out of the game if needs be, they are not wedded to it.

If landowners think they are going to break the calculators of people who are already paying them for renting land or similar and manage to charge them more for land then they are on a hiding to nothing.

If folk reckon the Gecko or others like him are going to be bent over as they try to make a shilling because the land owner can't they are in for a rude shock. These people don't do it for the lifestyle or tax reasons...

livestock 1 · Feb 27, 2020

ollie989898 said:
If the two are interlinked then that surely illustrates the madness that has beset the industry.

People like the Gecko do not know anything about farming when it received any kind of tax payer support. It is anathema to them, not part of their thinking or consciousness. He is not alone either, I have met several people like him. To these people, either a venture 'pencils' or it does not. They will dip in and out of the game if needs be, they are not wedded to it.

If landowners think they are going to break the calculators of people who are already paying them for renting land or similar and manage to charge them more for land then they are on a hiding to nothing.

If folk reckon the Gecko or others like him are going to be bent over as they try to make a shilling because the land owner can't they are in for a rude shock. These people don't do it for the lifestyle or tax reasons...

I would love to tell you are correct, but you aren’t.
Are you seriously telling me that for example grass keep would be where it is without bps?
Or farms to rent a better example. One price with bps another without it’s that simple.
Just because it’s happening doesn’t mean I’m drawn into that way of thinking. I’m just saying how it is.

unlacedgecko · Feb 27, 2020

livestock 1 said:
Who mentioned what neighbours say?
Accountant yes.
You wouldn’t get far in a panel van here.
Im trying to explain something to you that you don’t want to know about.
I will try again.
Would your grass keep rates be where they are in a world without bps??
I will give up after this

why wouldn’t I get far in a panel van? Do you not have roads?

my grass keep rates would be exactly the same, as they’re at a level which enables me to make a profit.

unlacedgecko · Feb 27, 2020

Hilly said:
Just flog two vans with two sets tyres two road tax two insurance two services two mots two lots fuel two everything and get a pickup truth will be probably cheaper anyway .

no no it really wouldn’t. as I operate on other people’s land I’m over a dispersed area. Diesel is my biggest cost.

Ford Fiesta does 60+ mpg, with loads of space in the bag for dogs, fence batteries and dead sheep.
Panel van does 30+ with loads of space for quad, fencing, all dogs, dead sheep etc, all safely hidden away in a lockable cargo area. And still has a tow bar for the handling system.

In order to move the same amount of gear with the pickup I’d need a trailer, which would bring pickup MPG to single figures. And it wouldn’t be as secure. And I’d need to do 2 trips if I wanted to move the handling system to the same location.

If I had a single ring fenced unit it would be a different matter. But for my situation my solution works best.

Reduction rates for BPS 2021

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0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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