Zero till may not be as environmentally friendly as we thought.

Kiwi Pete · May 6, 2020

SilliamWhale said:
You can also find data to express the opposite:

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/no_tillage_systems_linked_to_reduced_soil_n2o_emissions_in_mediterranean_agroecosystems_519na3_en.pdf

So you have to put data in its context. You won't get me denying N20 emissions will increase in poorly aerated soils. whatever the farming system and also adjusted for artificial N use.

But very often tilled soils are only aerated for a few months (or maybe even days/weeks) before going back to an unaerated state because of a lack of structure/ soil life etc. So is this taken into account?

So I would like to see the data on the season long N20 fluctuations for a crop side by side. The other thing I'm not sure on (can someone tell me?) is during the act of tillage how much Nitrous oxides could potentially be emitted in cultivation? I don't think its massive but it could be something - the N has to go somewhere after all.

N is the most complicated and least linear of all. Why do we not have a debate about nitrous oxide emissions from grassland?

There have been a few studies conducted in NZ about different reduction strategies in grassland, often used alongside the "but we can't stop using synthetics or we'll all starve" so "you should buy this ......... product as it has magical properties and also contains synthetic N"

You're dead right IMO, the main factors are the % of pore spaces full of water, soil Carbon levels, and how high the N inputs are.
Stocking rate, less, but also significant, the spinoff is that higher stocking rates can easily increase soil C to "soak" extra N.

Living systems approaches emit much less, based on any studies I've read; which is why it's crucial to think along that line as opposed to take one part of something out of a living (interconnected, interdependent) system and look at it.
Straw man indeed.

Kiwi Pete · May 6, 2020

Clive said:
Nothing new, it’s an old story and it’s only considering co2, nothing re nutrient loos, Edison and habitat etc

notill is just the act of not using deep cultivation, conservation agriculture use of cover crops, companion and relay crops etc, permanent ground cover all of which have wee document advantage to environment

The sceptic in me would even think these sorties exist because just maybe a lot of vested interest in input supply really does not want to see widespread uptake of a technique that needs less synthetic products and machinery

"Degenerates" ?

fudge · May 6, 2020

ajd132 said:
Organic farming is a marketing tool. A hybrid of current conventional and organic should be the aim. Both systems currently have major downfalls. If everyone was organic there would be no premium just loads of extra cost on machinery, fuel and labour.

That’s why it needs government support. A hybrid system won’t work in a free trade future, the costs will still be high compared to Eastern Europe and the American continent.

SilliamWhale · May 6, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
There have been a few studies conducted in NZ about different reduction strategies in grassland, often used alongside the "but we can't stop using synthetics or we'll all starve" so "you should buy this ......... product as it has magical properties and also contains synthetic N"

You're dead right IMO, the main factors are the % of pore spaces full of water, soil Carbon levels, and how high the N inputs are.
Stocking rate, less, but also significant, the spinoff is that higher stocking rates can easily increase soil C to "soak" extra N.

Living systems approaches emit much less, based on any studies I've read; which is why it's crucial to think along that line as opposed to take one part of something out of a living (interconnected, interdependent) system and look at it.
Straw man indeed.

Don't get me wrong. If we really made a global effort to rethink our food system we could probably manage our way out of artificial N but it would take a lot of effort and co-operation. And I refer back to one of my favourite books. We have historically always been short of N

ajd132 · May 6, 2020

fudge said:
That’s why it needs government support. A hybrid system won’t work in a free trade future, the costs will still be high compared to Eastern Europe and the American continent.

So you want us to go from one completely inefficient environmentally damaging system propped up by subsidies to another system equally if not more inefficient and environmental damaging. How are we ever going to have a thriving industry when this is the attitude

Kiwi Pete · May 6, 2020

SilliamWhale said:
Don't get me wrong. If we really made a global effort to rethink our food system we could probably manage our way out of artificial N but it would take a lot of effort and co-operation. And I refer back to one of my favourite books. We have historically always been short of N

View attachment 876106

Absolutely.. bagged N's only been around for a century, after all.
The main shift required is dietary shift, a lot of the N used today was never "needed" before the Rockefellers' "agribusiness".
And now it is, along with a lot of oil.

Funny how that works

Bury the Trash · May 6, 2020

ajd132 said:
Organic farming is a marketing tool. A hybrid of current conventional and organic should be the aim. Both systems currently have major downfalls. If everyone was organic there would be no premium just loads of extra cost on machinery, fuel and labour.

I agree , all bar the last line , that's where livestock comes in useful , not appropriate for those that like to ski tho.

SilliamWhale · May 6, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Absolutely.. bagged N's only been around for a century, after all.
The main shift required is dietary shift, a lot of the N used today was never "needed" before the Rockefellers' "agribusiness".
And now it is, along with a lot of oil.

Funny how that works

But before bagged N we made a major effort and risked many lives to get guano. Modern N has its disadvantages but it really is a modern miracle as well - really recommend the book!

Clive · May 6, 2020

fudge said:
Organic farming is the right model for uk agriculture. Chemical's are on the way out/ grossly over priced, N fertiliser fixed with fossil fuel is on the way out, trans Atlantic trade deals are on the way. If we are to produce local food for local people we must convince the government to support this vision or watch production be exported to places where land is much cheaper and the environmental costs are out of sight. Unfortunately as capitalists, farmers both tillers and notillers cannot see passed the end of their noses and continue to argue about rearranging chairs on the deck of the titanic. Good luck with that!!

organic is a niche - if we all do it the price erodes and we all go bust

it’s all so not without environmental consequences, lots of tillage and hoeing etc not ideal

the “right future” is a hybrid system somewhere between conventional and organic imo

SilliamWhale · May 6, 2020

Clive said:
organic is a niche - if we all do it the price erodes and we all go bust

it’s all so not without environmental consequences, lots of tillage and hoeing etc not ideal

the “right future” is a hybrid system somewhere between conventional and organic imo

There's no such thing as a hybrid with organic they are very rigid about their self selecting rules and snapshot of right/wrong.

Brisel · May 6, 2020

SilliamWhale said:
There's no such thing as a hybrid with organic they are very rigid about their self selecting rules and snapshot of right/wrong.

Entrenched views in some users of other methods too...

SilliamWhale · May 6, 2020

Brisel said:
Entrenched views in some users of other methods too...

Views but not rules!

Brisel · May 6, 2020

Clive said:
Nothing new, it’s an old story and it’s only considering co2, nothing re nutrient loss, soil erosion and habitat etc

notill is just the act of not using deep cultivation, conservation agriculture use of cover crops, companion and relay crops etc, permanent ground cover all of which have wee document advantages to environment

The sceptic in me would even think these sorties exist because just maybe a lot of vested interest in input supply and oil really does not want to see widespread uptake of a technique that needs less synthetic products and machinery

I will vouch for the integrity of the GWCT here - reading the whole piece by Dr Leake would be best.

ajd132 · May 6, 2020

Brisel said:
I will vouch for the integrity of the GWCT here - reading the whole piece by Dr Leake would be best.

I second that, Dr Leake is a big advocate for regen ag and working within ecosystems.

snarling bee · May 6, 2020

SilliamWhale said:
Its not as complicated as you think .

This year @Two Tone had a crop of failed rape and no tilled some oats into it. Now I have no idea what they look like now but they did come up. And he is a die hard plough the lot man

What is so hard about drilling wheat into beans or osr no till?

Its not complicated to DD any crop into a field. But that is not what I meant.
To get any soil to be 'better' under DD takes time. It takes time for OM to build up (a very long time), usually it is more concentrated in the top few inches, it takes a few years for the worm numbers to build up etc etc. Heavy clays will probably go through a period of perhaps 7-10 years where they are harder and more compacted before they get better. That is when you will probably get more NO2 emissions.

DDing is not conservation agriculture, but you need to DD to be practising conservation ag do you not?

I now wait to be shot down in flames because I cultivate and grow continuous wheat, I therefore know nothing and shouldn't be farming.

ajd132 · May 6, 2020

snarling bee said:
Its not complicated to DD any crop into a field. But that is not what I meant.
To get any soil to be 'better' under DD takes time. It takes time for OM to build up (a very long time), usually it is more concentrated in the top few inches, it takes a few years for the worm numbers to build up etc etc. Heavy clays will probably go through a period of perhaps 7-10 years where they are harder and more compacted before they get better. That is when you will probably get more NO2 emissions.

DDing is not conservation agriculture, but you need to DD to be practising conservation ag do you not?

I now wait to be shot down in flames because I cultivate and grow continuous wheat, I therefore know nothing and shouldn't be farming.

I don’t think strict no till is needed for regen ag. Gary zimmer has some interesting thoughts on this, he doesn’t advocate recreational cultivation but thinks some cultivation’s can be very useful in the right situation and on some soils.

Brisel · May 6, 2020

Any system needs to flexible, not rigidly prescriptive.

shakerator · May 6, 2020

Clive said:
organic is a niche - if we all do it the price erodes and we all go bust

it’s all so not without environmental consequences, lots of tillage and hoeing etc not ideal

the “right future” is a hybrid system somewhere between conventional and organic imo

If we all do it grain becomes currency again

Bury the Trash · May 6, 2020

Re gen lol...
Yet another trendy word from America.

Zero til is a silly name in this context as well, permanent pasture is the only zero til in farming.

teslacoils · May 6, 2020

For every study saying no till is good for this, there is another saying it's less good for y. Just like pinning a politician down on a point, in a room of ten experts there will be 11 opinions. I've read plenty of studies on cultivation, very few done in UK conditions, and while they do show there are negatives as well as positives, they are usually positive overall. Noting the best results are in climates and soils where moisture is generally the limiting factor for yield.

Zero till may not be as environmentally friendly as we thought.

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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