Zero till may not be as environmentally friendly as we thought.

Sid said:

I haven't read this whole thread I will admit.

But utilizing what we already have on farm is the key.
If that means accepting a lower yield but with much lower input cost then it's a win win. (The world is not short of calories the issue is distribution)
Why not plant nitrogen fixing plants inter row, why not strip tillage. Why not grain that fixes it's own nitrogen?
We always fail to compute the full cost of ANY system or input.
I use this as a recent example

India gas leak: At least 11 dead after Visakhapatnam incident

Many people taken to hospital complained of a burning sensation in the eyes and difficulty breathing.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nuclear power is another with government (us)picking up the cost of dealing with the waste.

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Two Tone said:

You raise a couple of interesting points:
Former chief Plant Pathologist of the Plant Breeding Institute (PBI), Cambridge, Professor Martin Wolfe tried many experiments, initially using variety blends and eventually planting Nitrogen Fixing Crops with cereals.
Wheat with Beans and Barley with Peas. It was relatively successfull, but yields weren’t anything approaching what can be achieved with nitrogen fertilisers. Both crops come to harvest at the same time. Once combine harvested, the crops were divided using a dresser/cleaner.
Martin retired in the early 90’s, bought himself Wakelyns Farm at Fressingfield in Suffolk, to continue his experiments. My two brothers and I helped him set it up. My two brothers still help run what is known as the Wakelyns Agroforestry Project today. Martin sadly died last year.

Nitrogen fixing cereals have been the Holy Grail that just hasn’t been able to have been achieved. It was hoped that GM technology would solve this and they have been trying hard to do so. Sadly without any success so far.

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Two Tone said:

You raise a couple of interesting points:
Former chief Plant Pathologist of the Plant Breeding Institute (PBI), Cambridge, Professor Martin Wolfe tried many experiments, initially using variety blends and eventually planting Nitrogen Fixing Crops with cereals.
Wheat with Beans and Barley with Peas. It was relatively successfull, but yields weren’t anything approaching what can be achieved with nitrogen fertilisers. Both crops come to harvest at the same time. Once combine harvested, the crops were divided using a dresser/cleaner.
Martin retired in the early 90’s, bought himself Wakelyns Farm at Fressingfield in Suffolk, to continue his experiments. My two brothers and I helped him set it up. My two brothers still help run what is known as the Wakelyns Agroforestry Project today. Martin sadly died last year.

Nitrogen fixing cereals have been the Holy Grail that just hasn’t been able to have been achieved. It was hoped that GM technology would solve this and they have been trying hard to do so. Sadly without any success so far.

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Two Tone said:

You raise a couple of interesting points:
Former chief Plant Pathologist of the Plant Breeding Institute (PBI), Cambridge, Professor Martin Wolfe tried many experiments, initially using variety blends and eventually planting Nitrogen Fixing Crops with cereals.
Wheat with Beans and Barley with Peas. It was relatively successfull, but yields weren’t anything approaching what can be achieved with nitrogen fertilisers. Both crops come to harvest at the same time. Once combine harvested, the crops were divided using a dresser/cleaner.
Martin retired in the early 90’s, bought himself Wakelyns Farm at Fressingfield in Suffolk, to continue his experiments. My two brothers and I helped him set it up. My two brothers still help run what is known as the Wakelyns Agroforestry Project today. Martin sadly died last year.

Nitrogen fixing cereals have been the Holy Grail that just hasn’t been able to have been achieved. It was hoped that GM technology would solve this and they have been trying hard to do so. Sadly without any success so far.

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fudge said:

N fixing takes energy which cannot be used for plant growth. Therefore you are volunteering for lower yield, GM doesn’t get round this.

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SilliamWhale said:

Why does N fixing cereals have to be the holy grail though? I get that we need to grow some cereals but we don't make enough use of our legumes as main food materials generally. Loads of pulses fill the carbohydrate need for us for free Nb

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Sid said:

So what if it's a lower yield?
Isn't it the margin that is key.
Having said that what about the true cost of the production of N fertiliser. Factor that in and do the nutrient and monetary budget.

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Two Tone said:

Organic Farming.
They don’t like Nitrogen fertilisers and the don’t like GM either.

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fudge said:

If N fert could be manufactured more sustainablely the “true” costs would be lower.
In some respects lower yields do have an impact on biodiversity since more land is required to produce the same amount of food.
Any system that fixes N without fossil fuels is worth researching, only an opinion mind.

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ajd132 said:

At the moment GM doesn’t help farmers it just fills the coffers of huge multi nationals

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Two Tone said:

It’s about as obvious as the nose on the end of your face!

If we could genetically modify, the for main carbohydrate food staples, Corn, Wheat, Rice and Potatoes to have Nitrogen Fixing Bacteria Nodules on their root systems, we could do away with the need to apply Artificial Nitrate fertiliser altogether!

I sometimes describe DD as a religion, but there is another called Organic Farming.
They don’t like Nitrogen fertilisers and the don’t like GM either.
Just suppose that one day, we do achieve the Holy Grail and that no more artificial Nitrate was needed to grow crops, wouldn’t any sane person think it was a win-win?
Well, try asking the top bods at the Soil Association that and they use can’t answer it!

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Sid said:

Nail firmly on the head!

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SilliamWhale said:

Yes but we don't have to eat those products in the way we do. They just happen to have evolved like that. Most of those 4 are nutritionally not amazing they're just adapted.

Direct drillers think too rationally to be called religious. We don't have competitions to see who can drill the tidiest or bless our direct drills.

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ajd132 said:

Because of its monopolisation and politicisation I can’t see it ever benefiting farmers financially. I was invited to a bayer conference last September and the most interesting farmer I met there was an Argentinian who was actually moving away from GM and taking a more regenerative holistic route. He was a very big farmer aswell. It was a great attitude but I did wonder why they got him to speak. The Americans talking were so in thrall to the GM/biotech route they could not understand different ways of thinking and couldn’t understand why they weren’t making any money. They just wanted more gm and chemical answers to problems and relied on crop insurance. Really interesting differences between the two. It’s why I don’t get why farmers in the U.K. think GM will save them agronomicslly and financially, in its current guise it does neither.

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Sid said:

I have been watching some Youtube farmers in the US recently. Boyoboy have they bought right in lockstock and barrel! Forward thinking? more likey blinkered!

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Northern territory said:

Not read all this thread but with large scale arable farming, are soils ever going to be in a better state than when a lot more family mixed farms existed. Yes it has all been driven by economics falling income and rising costs. Half the land farmed now in this country would once have belonged to smaller steadings.

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ajd132 said:

No denying that. We are an example of that. But we can and I think have to change as the chemical toolkit continues to be eroded making it impossible.

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Northern territory said:

We are a mixed farm but it is very labour intensive, that’s where the issue lies. Sometimes I think we would be better just grassing the lot down but even that comes with issues.

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