Zero till may not be as environmentally friendly as we thought.

[SilliamWhale]

Not read all this thread but with large scale arable farming, are soils ever going to be in a better state than when a lot more family mixed farms existed. Yes it has all been driven by economics falling income and rising costs. Half the land farmed now in this country would once have belonged to smaller steadings.

Are soils ever going to be in a better state than before the family mixed farms existed?

Before we ploughed before the war?

Yes and No. Lots of land was less fertile then as logistially its easier to build pH and fertility now thanks to machinery and accuracy.

 

[Northern territory]

[/QUOTE]

Are soils ever going to be in a better state than before the family mixed farms existed?

Before we ploughed before the war?

Yes and No. Lots of land was less fertile then as logistially its easier to build pH and fertility now thanks to machinery and accuracy.

agree more modern techniques have lead to improvements no doubts. I think a lot of pressure to get jobs done in a short working window and large heavy machinery have had big impacts though.

 

[SilliamWhale]

So can anyone tell me why there is likely to be more Nitrous Oxides emitted from a field that had a crop direct drilled into it compared to a field left as a winter stubble?

Or have I found just one of the very obvious flaws in the research. The other one being that when you bury organic matter you are likely to have more organic matter in the place where it has just been buried than in the place where its just been taken away from!

 

[glasshouse]

Organic farming is a marketing tool. A hybrid of current conventional and organic should be the aim. Both systems currently have major downfalls. If everyone was organic there would be no premium just loads of extra cost on machinery, fuel and labour.

If everyone was organic, the price of grain and bread would be through the roof.
Bring it on

 

[Danllan]

I haven't read this whole thread... but it seems entirely counterintuitive, irrational, illogical and what have you, that anything that is closer to the natural way of things would be less environmentally friendly than any more unnatural alternative.

 

[DrWazzock]

If everyone was organic, the price of grain and bread would be through the roof.
Bring it on

unfortunately they would just bring in cheap conventionally produced stuff from abroad. They are doing it already in fact. We have to do this that and the other to satisfy a host of standards here, adding to cost of production so they just bring it in from abroad a bit cheaper. Who is paying over the odds for OSR because there is a shortage here due to the neonics ban? Nobody, it’s coming in from abroad where such chemicals are still in use.

ironically my best spring barley this year is after I ploughed a field that looked like the Somme after the beet harvest. Farming generally confounds theories.

 

[DrWazzock]

I think the plough evolved over a long time for a reason. Yes I do find it’s use counterintuitive some of the time but I can’t argue with a 1000 years of evolution. I don’t use it all the time but as Elmstead used to say it’s a tool in the box, just like my direct drill. If you only grow cereals then maybe you don’t need a plough but I won’t be selling mine any time soon.

 

[glasshouse]

unfortunately they would just bring in cheap conventionally produced stuff from abroad. They are doing it already in fact. We have to do this that and the other to satisfy a host of standards here, adding to cost of production so they just bring it in from abroad a bit cheaper. Who is paying over the odds for OSR because there is a shortage here due to the neonics ban? Nobody, it’s coming in from abroad where such chemicals are still in use.

ironically my best spring barley this year is after I ploughed a field that looked like the Somme after the beet harvest. Farming generally confounds theories.

The man said “everyone”

 

[Bogweevil]

You are all wrong, it is down to the juices. Soil has juice - ploughing sweetens the juices, no- till leaves them sour. Nitrogen fertiliser is like sugar it sweetens the soil juices, so you should use plenty of nitrogen if you no-till. That is why organic no till is difficult, they have no nitrogen to sweeten the soil. Pasture does not get sour as the grass sucks up the sour juices which is why you can make silage, otherwise you would have to add heroic amounts of formic acid to get good silage. Exposing hay to sun lets the sour juices evaporate. Pigs like the sweet soil juices which is why they rootle so much. Ringing pigs leads to sour soil juices.

When I told BASIS this they rescinded my FACTS qualification, the dolts.

 

[ajd132]

You are all wrong, it is down to the juices. Soil has juice - ploughing sweetens the juices, no- till leaves them sour. Nitrogen fertiliser is like sugar it sweetens the soil juices, so you should use plenty of nitrogen if you no-till. That is why organic no till is difficult, they have no nitrogen to sweeten the soil. Pasture does not get sour as the grass sucks up the sour juices which is why you can make silage, otherwise you would have to add heroic amounts of formic acid to get good silage. Exposing hay to sun lets the sour juices evaporate. Pigs like the sweet soil juices which is why they rootle so much. Ringing pigs leads to sour soil juices.

When I told BASIS this they rescinded my FACTS qualification, the dolts.

Sounds like you have been on the juice!

 

[DrWazzock]

The man said “everyone”

OK. I hadn’t read the rest of the thread. I rarely do.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I think the plough evolved over a long time for a reason. Yes I do find it’s use counterintuitive some of the time but I can’t argue with a 1000 years of evolution. I don’t use it all the time but as Elmstead used to say it’s a tool in the box, just like my direct drill. If you only grow cereals then maybe you don’t need a plough but I won’t be selling mine any time soon.

Sure it is. But you can also arrange your affairs so as not to need the tool in the box. Why use a brace drill when you have a power drill etc. So this is the point a lot of us are making - we can plough too if we wanted - but we want to arrange our system so we don't need to

 

[DrWazzock]

Sure it is. But you can also arrange your affairs so as not to need the tool in the box. Why use a brace drill when you have a power drill etc. So this is the point a lot of us are making - we can plough too if we wanted - but we want to arrange our system so we don't need to

Believe me I have tried in the face of some very stiff opposition. It can work, but not without considerable capital expenditure on the right drill, namely a JD750A which is beyond my budget.
Then we come to straw. Bale it they say, but that is cheating. Any fool can direct drill into baled off stubbles, but you have lost vast amounts of potash and carbon and often pummelled the soil badly. So what do we do with a 4 ton per acre crop of chopped barley straw. Can’t drill into it in the autumn but can in the spring so already we are compromising. By all means fit your farm around zero till if you like but here ploughing gives us a lot of flexibility and room to manoeuvre re cropping choices and extended drilling windows.
Not knocking zero till. It’s the best way if you can make it work but we just can’t make it work all time without seriously compromising our options.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Believe me I have tried in the face of some very stiff opposition. It can work, but not without considerable capital expenditure on the right drill, namely a JD750A which is beyond my budget.
Then we come to straw. Bale it they say, but that is cheating. Any fool can direct drill into baled off stubbles, but you have lost vast amounts of potash and carbon and often pummelled the soil badly. So what do we do with a 4 ton per acre crop of chopped barley straw. Can’t drill into it in the autumn but can in the spring so already we are compromising. By all means fit your farm around zero till if you like but here ploughing gives us a lot of flexibility and room to manoeuvre re cropping choices and extended drilling windows.
Not knocking zero till. It’s the best way if you can make it work but we just can’t make it work all time without seriously compromising our options.

I would bale barley straw any day of the week. I wouldn't be worried about the carbon loss one bit. I put it all back as muck. I can't believe theres no pig muck around you

 

[DrWazzock]

When you are there on the ground with areas of compaction, difficult weeds like brome and cranesbill or some seriously sad clay or heavy levels of residue you just think feck it, let’s tidy the job up and plough it. Reset it without chemicals or slug pellets, cover crops or other bollox.

 

[DrWazzock]

I would bale barley straw any day of the week. I wouldn't be worried about the carbon loss one bit. I put it all back as muck. I can't believe theres no pig muck around you

Yes in an ideal world, But it ain’t ideal. Straw man comes when it’s too late. Faff about importing manure. Feck all that. Stick the plough on and crack on. Plough my straw in. Short circuit the manure malarkey.

 

[DrWazzock]

And heavy clay. Best ploughed dry behind the combine. Will be tilth by October for drilling. If left untouched with a layer of chopped straw on it then it’s slug infested lard come October. That’s a fact.
I have got way with direct drilling sand any time of year. It’s very forgiving. But clay isn’t. It needs cocking up on its side and it needs weathering. That’s a fact.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

But before bagged N we made a major effort and risked many lives to get guano. Modern N has its disadvantages but it really is a modern miracle as well - really recommend the book!

Risking lives....

The trouble is, lives are really the problem, there are far too many of one species and nowhere near enough of the others.

I guess that's part of the miracle - that and most humans refuse to see the bigger picture as "it's rather inconvenient" .... that it isn't agriculture that's the problem, but the billions of people eating the commodity coming out the back of it.

Covid has been great in the respect that it has given us time to reflect; it would be interesting to see what hypothetical improvements could be made if it had reduced the first-world population by 50, or even 80%.
Would we then come out the other side with a different view of "self"? Would a new baby still be called "a little miracle"?

Yes but we don't have to eat those products in the way we do. They just happen to have evolved like that. Most of those 4 are nutritionally not amazing they're just adapted.

Direct drillers think too rationally to be called religious. We don't have competitions to see who can drill the tidiest or bless our direct drills.

Completely agree, it's incredibly convenient to be fed by "a food production system" but it simply doesn't have to be about convenience.
People generally fall back on a heap of excuses when you close in on the truth - the majority of first world consumers just can't be bothered managing their time and resources to grow their own food because there are ways around it.

I have absolutely no sympathy for what their choices create, hence why I didn't get into the Zach Bush debate over glyphosate.
I hope that he's right, as much as I hope he's largely dismissed as a quack: lives are at stake.

 

[Warnesworth]

Believe me I have tried in the face of some very stiff opposition. It can work, but not without considerable capital expenditure on the right drill, namely a JD750A which is beyond my budget.
Then we come to straw. Bale it they say, but that is cheating. Any fool can direct drill into baled off stubbles, but you have lost vast amounts of potash and carbon and often pummelled the soil badly. So what do we do with a 4 ton per acre crop of chopped barley straw. Can’t drill into it in the autumn but can in the spring so already we are compromising. By all means fit your farm around zero till if you like but here ploughing gives us a lot of flexibility and room to manoeuvre re cropping choices and extended drilling windows.
Not knocking zero till. It’s the best way if you can make it work but we just can’t make it work all time without seriously compromising our options.

You need a tine drill.

 

[snarling bee]

The thing with heavy clay is that early cultivation gives easy and good seedbeds. You can't say "I'll leave it to see how the autumn pans out and then I'll decide to DD, min till or plough". The decision has to be the minute the combine leaves the field if not before.