But if you have just grown 11t/ha of wheat surely the soil is in great condition to drill straight into?
Zero till may not be as environmentally friendly as we thought.
- Thread starter willy
- Start date
- Location
- Lincolnshire
.....and about 500hp and a cover over the back window so it doesn’t get smashed by the clods that it brings up.
- Location
- Bedfordshire
I wish.
organicguy
Member
- Location
- North East of the south west
Not blind spot, more achilles heel!
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Multiple stressors of any type are pretty degenerative - I always toyed with the idea of organics but it's just so prescriptive and inflexible here.
Multiple passes with bioicides, multiple passes with a tine harrow - little difference other than soil disturbance. Notill is the lesser of evils.
Regeneration is about freedom and flexibility, and that's pretty much ALL commodity production out the window.
So I just got stuck into grazing instead, you can actually push the limits that way.
Like the perennial cover-cropping thing we're trying out; no-till in a cashcrop, harvest it with cheap calves, returns back to pasture of its own accord.
It's still organic, without being Organic, yet there's a whole world of difference somehow?
- Location
- Chipping Norton
Nonsense.
- Location
- Chipping Norton
It's certainly true that land out of very long term pasture is noticeably easier working many decades after the the first ploughing. As for nitrate being released , well I suppose all that organic matter is still releasing some fertility every time its exposed to the air. 1980's !? Ten tonne club perhaps????
shakerator
Member
- Location
- LINCS
I think any farmer could legitimately call themselves an organic farmer as in my eyes the term just means carbon. Thing is “vitalism” had to change tack after urea (organic!) was synthesised and that spirit of thought manifests itself under the organic umbrella today
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Big difference between operating according to principles, and operating according to rules.
I recently upset an organic farmer simply by saying that prescriptive agriculture, especially to produce commodities, is inherently degenerative as it limits freedom and the right to express your uniqueness.
More rules doesn't automatically make it "better".
Didn't like it much. ?
shakerator
Member
- Location
- LINCS
Big difference between operating according to principles, and operating according to rules.
I recently upset an organic farmer simply by saying that prescriptive agriculture, especially to produce commodities, is inherently degenerative as it limits freedom and the right to express your uniqueness.
More rules doesn't automatically make it "better".
Didn't like it much. ?
there is an upside to commodities in terms of food safety and without a homogenous common “base” to our food supply “added value/ niche” products would be meaningless
the distinction between the natural and the artificial is an artificial distinction
- Location
- somerset
never got my head round organic, it seems a case of swapping sprays for diesel, and not sure which is the bigger pollutant. What ever your view, it all boils down to soil structure, doesn't it ? A proper soil structure, will work with, and for you. Certainly here, the use of the plough, has decreased worm population, which is visible, and probably decreased the fungi and bugs, which is invisible. Sprays, and ferts, were developed to increase yield, all good, but a modern spray programme, is unrecognisable from the first ones, they increase yield, modern ones, are necessary, to maintain yields, question is what has changed. As machinery has increased in size, and weight, and sheer weight, is 'panning' soil, the move towards min, or no till, has increased, the final move, will be the use of robots, for weed/disease control.
The better the soil structure, the lower the 'pollution' potential, and whether you are organic, or inorganic, deep till or min till, d/d, yield will be influenced by soil, and parts of all systems, used properly, will all improve soil, and reduce Nox and Carbon leakage.
The better the soil structure, the lower the 'pollution' potential, and whether you are organic, or inorganic, deep till or min till, d/d, yield will be influenced by soil, and parts of all systems, used properly, will all improve soil, and reduce Nox and Carbon leakage.
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
I agree and this is what I find so frustrating about some of the religious DDer’s . No-TIL drills and ploughing are both tools in the box.
What on earth is wrong in being able to use both, for different fields that suit different systems?
It’s like some of them get some sort of “high” and become so hooked that they are blinkered to any alternativ’s
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
Funnily enough, I have always found it difficult to get the highest yields on what was once old pasture land. I was born on the Cambridgeshire Black peat Fens and we had exactly the same problem there. It’s too rich!
You get plenty of foliage growth, but never the highest yields.
I’ve even got some meadowland here that is now arable. But our best yields always come from land that has always been arable. Usually the heavier stuff in a dry year, As long as it was drilled in good conditions, which by today’s standards would be called early!
I think because DD and ploughing are both just establishment techniques that can be used in a conventional system. I think why many (me included) are quite zealous over it is because we are trying to take a completely different path for farming system, dipping in and out of heavy till/plough/dd doesn’t really allow the long term goals we are aiming for. Also having the ability to cherry pick every system puts overheads up again!
ollie989898
Member
The biggest problem with organic is, that long term, holding up your P and K reserves can be very difficult. I'm not convinced fully organic arable is even better for the environment once you take yields into account.
- Location
- LINCOLNSHIRE/KENYA
We are growing veg with little or no cereals because of our climate we are growing at least 3 and sometimes 4 crops per year on the same land. The more crops we grow the less fertiliser we require. We have a legume, brassica, legume ,potato or maize rotation everything is chopped back in and we are starting a controlled traffic system. We are only using base fertiliser on French beans and potatoes only . It's interesting because the harder we push the land the better it becomes the absolute opposite I was taught.
- Location
- North Norfolk
Good to hear. I was involved in some zero till experiments in Malawi in the early '80s, and the main result was termites eating all the organic matter. It never really had a chance to reach equilibrium with the termites. We were using Paraquat as the herbicide. As an aside, I enjoyed reading "Underbug" by Lisa Margonelli, published by One World, on termite organisation.
SilliamWhale
Member
I think you are still approaching it from the wrong point of view.
A no tillers aim is to create a situation where he wouldn't need to use the plough ie it wouldn't need to come into the conversation because he has managed his cropping/ trying to manage his cropping not to need it. Its nothing about being "high" or "religious" that's just a cop out from the tillage perspective.
The no tiller is aiming not to use tillage because they think its better for their soil, time management and bank account not to need to cultivate. I don't always get it right but when I do it gives me cheap establishment and higher yielding crops than I ever managed to under tillage. The challenge is to make this repeatable as possible. Its still new ground as I've only been doing it 14 years and so I still get the odd thing wrong, but then so do ploughmen and they've been doing since before the bible apparently!
Which bit do you find so frustrating?
- Location
- Bedfordshire
The bit where you assume your successful system will work everywhere else probably.
SilliamWhale
Member
No assumptions.
I've seen it work on all sorts of soils and farms. It doesn't suit all farms but then again nothing suits all farms.