autumn re-seeding

ollie989898 · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
When do you find the dead cows, it cant just be on random occasions can it? Surely there must be another factor that coupled with the red clover causes the bloat.

Is it when it's a wet day or something as I know wetter weather you have to be careful?

Classic is an interruption in your routine, cows get hungry if say they are delayed stood in the yard and then are allowed out on to a pasture where there is a lot of clover and the farmer hasn't realised it. Cows go out, fill up with a belly load of it and bang. What looks like a modest amount of clover in March can look like a lot of clover at other times of the year. Saw it at college. Sandy soils that dry up a lot in summer, get to the autumn and the clover has run wild and near 100% ground cover.

Jdunn55 · Sep 20, 2020

ollie989898 said:
Classic is an interruption in your routine, cows get hungry if say they are delayed stood in the yard and then are allowed out on to a pasture where there is a lot of clover and the farmer hasn't realised it. Cows go out, fill up with a belly load of it and bang. What looks like a modest amount of clover in March can look like a lot of clover at other times of the year. Saw it at college. Sandy soils that dry up a lot in summer, get to the autumn and the clover has run wild and near 100% ground cover.

What I currently do with my sucklers is once they've finished all the non-red clover fields they come into the shed and eat 2 bales of hay before being allowed out in the afternoon onto the red clover. Then they get daily moves in the morning.

For a milking herd, if I did the same and brought them in and fed bales to "line their stomachs" as such, before letting them out.
Then if their fence was moved everytime they came in for milking so they could go straight out to eat once milked would you be reducing the risk?
And then should it be a wet miserable day being flexible and sending them to straight grass fields instead?

I too am also worried as I had hoped to put 50 acres of herbal leys in next year and it would royally mess up my cashflow projections due to no gs4 payment and needing to spread fertiliser

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
Thankyou, that's what I thought.
Once used to red clover (after the first couple of days) am I right in thinking the risk of bloat decreases as they become used to it?

Yes and if they are on it all the time then less risk as they don't over eat

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
What I currently do with my sucklers is once they've finished all the non-red clover fields they come into the shed and eat 2 bales of hay before being allowed out in the afternoon onto the red clover. Then they get daily moves in the morning.

For a milking herd, if I did the same and brought them in and fed bales to "line their stomachs" as such, before letting them out.
Then if their fence was moved everytime they came in for milking so they could go straight out to eat once milked would you be reducing the risk?
And then should it be a wet miserable day being flexible and sending them to straight grass fields instead?

I too am also worried as I had hoped to put 50 acres of herbal leys in next year and it would royally mess up my cashflow projections due to no gs4 payment and needing to spread fertiliser

How much Red Clover -can you remember how much was in the mix ?

Jdunn55 · Sep 20, 2020

Derrick Hughes said:
How much Red Clover -can you remember how much was in the mix ?

The stuff that the dairy cows would be grazing hasn't been planted yet. The stuff the sucklers are on I think is about 15%ish and so far no casualties... yet

It needs to have 10% red clover cover as minimum to hit gs4 requirements.
If I need to not do it , it would cost me in the region of £10,000/year which as a new startup is a massive chunk of money, hence why I'm worried!

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
The stuff that the dairy cows would be grazing hasn't been planted yet. The stuff the sucklers are on I think is about 15%ish and so far no casualties... yet

It needs to have 10% red clover cover as minimum to hit gs4 requirements.
If I need to not do it , it would cost me in the region of £10,000/year which as a new startup is a massive chunk of money, hence why I'm worried!

Personaly I would not worry at 10 % - farmers go higher with White Clover and some will argue that White Clover is worse for bloat -
If the clover comes to stong later in the year then take a cut or make sure cattle have a belly full of silage before they go out

Jdunn55 · Sep 20, 2020

Derrick Hughes said:
Personaly I would not worry at 10 % - farmers go higher with White Clover and some will argue that White Clover is worse for bloat -
If the clover comes to stong later in the year then take a cut or make sure cattle have a belly full of silage before they go out

That was my thinking, I'd be more worried if it was at 30% or even 20+
On another note can lucerne cause bloat in the same way as red clover? Just thinking as I would like some more plants in the mix to do nitrogen fixing as 10% red clover doesnt seem enough?

Cows 'n grass · Sep 20, 2020

I've lost plenty of cows on white clover to but bloat gives me nightmares like nothing else. My worst was on a tb testing day, cows were held back so went out hungry and a walker had left a gate open so the cows ended up in the wrong field, we lost half a dozen and stabbed a heap more.

Buffer feeding with long fibre and turning out full doesn't fit my system.

Life is a risk but I consider red clover on the grazing platform an unnecessary risk.

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
That was my thinking, I'd be more worried if it was at 30% or even 20+
On another note can lucerne cause bloat in the same way as red clover? Just thinking as I would like some more plants in the mix to do nitrogen fixing as 10% red clover doesnt seem enough?

Yes Lucerne can be as bad as red clover when grazed
Look at Sainfoin that actually helps prevent bloat
Birdsfoot trefoil, like sainfoin, contains tannins and is another bloat preventer

ISCO · Sep 20, 2020

Red clover fattens lambs very well however we lost 4 out of 150 this year with redgut.
Hoping to make high quality silage next year for ewes.

Jdunn55 · Sep 20, 2020

Derrick Hughes said:
Yes Lucerne can be as bad as red clover when grazed
Look at Sainfoin that actually helps prevent bloat
Birdsfoot trefoil, like sainfoin, contains tannins and is another bloat preventer

Thankyou, was going to ask if theres anything else to look at! I've got to put birdsfoot trefoil in anyway to meet gs4 requirements so maybe I could up the % of that? Am I right in thinking it nitrogen fixes as well but not as efficiently as red clover?
I'm not entirely sure sainfoin will grow but trefoil should

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
Thankyou, was going to ask if theres anything else to look at! I've got to put birdsfoot trefoil in anyway to meet gs4 requirements so maybe I could up the % of that? Am I right in thinking it nitrogen fixes as well but not as efficiently as red clover?
I'm not entirely sure sainfoin will grow but trefoil should

Yes fixes nitrogen

Jdunn55 · Sep 20, 2020

Cows 'n grass said:
I've lost plenty of cows on white clover to but bloat gives me nightmares like nothing else. My worst was on a tb testing day, cows were held back so went out hungry and a walker had left a gate open so the cows ended up in the wrong field, we lost half a dozen and stabbed a heap more.

Buffer feeding with long fibre and turning out full doesn't fit my system.

Life is a risk but I consider red clover on the grazing platform an unnecessary risk.

Thanks, when I say about feeding long fibre, I mean just until they get used to it so only a maximum of 2-3 days but probably only 1 which I'm assuming would help stop them from consuming huge quantities just because they havent been on it for a while?
The gs4 has already been applied for is the other issue, but it could come out in 3 years time anyway and I could graze the cows elsewhere and just use it for silage as my numbers would be lower for the first few years anyway if I find it causes me too many problems.
Having said that, I would like to be able to graze it so I might try it and see how I get on after the first year.

Cows 'n grass · Sep 20, 2020

Jdunn55 said:
Thanks, when I say about feeding long fibre, I mean just until they get used to it so only a maximum of 2-3 days but probably only 1 which I'm assuming would help stop them from consuming huge quantities just because they havent been on it for a while?
The gs4 has already been applied for is the other issue, but it could come out in 3 years time anyway and I could graze the cows elsewhere and just use it for silage as my numbers would be lower for the first few years anyway if I find it causes me too many problems.
Having said that, I would like to be able to graze it so I might try it and see how I get on after the first year.

Pass. As I said it's a risky crop to graze. It's not impossible but it would give me sleepless nights.

Jdunn55 · Sep 20, 2020

Derrick Hughes said:
Yes fixes nitrogen

Thanks just done some googling on it, says that it reduces bloat due to the tannins in it, are these the same as in yarrow?

My thinking is by using a good proportion of yarrow, trefoil and maybe sainfoin, I could offset any bloat from red clover?

Cows 'n grass · Sep 20, 2020

Derrick Hughes said:
Yes Lucerne can be as bad as red clover when grazed
Look at Sainfoin that actually helps prevent bloat
Birdsfoot trefoil, like sainfoin, contains tannins and is another bloat preventer

Have you ever actually sold any of these or seen than growing? There's not a chance that trefoil or sanfoin would persist beyond year in a dairy grazing ley.

Cows 'n grass · Sep 20, 2020

I wouldn't consider sanfoin a crop suitable for most of the west country. It wants to be grown like lucerne, pH nearing 7 on dry ground.

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Cows 'n grass said:
Have you ever actually sold any of these or seen than growing? There's not a chance that trefoil or sanfoin would persist beyond year in a dairy grazing ley.

Its not a traditional dairy pasture though its a GS 4 herb and legume mix
Birdsfoot Trefoil Seed (Agri) (Lotus Corniculatus) (3kg per acre)

Birdsfoot Trefoil is a very useful perennial non-bloating Legume

Produces high quality forage (grazing, silage & hay) - provides protein and reduces methane outputs

Very long tap root (almost as deep as Lucerne), with a large lateral root spread too

Nitrogen fixer

Tolerates frost, cold weather and waterlogging

Suites a wide range of soils - including acidic soils

Dry matter digestibility: 60 - 70%

Can be slow to establish in the year of sowing and requires a fairly high sun light level. However in the long term it has been tested to fix more nitrogen and be higher yielding than White Clover

It thrives in places where alfalfa and other forage legumes cannot grow because of soil acidity and moisture.

Also great for erosion control

Sow in Spring - Late Summer

Birdsfoot Trefoil Seed (Agri) (Lotus Corniculatus) (3kg per acre)

Birdsfoot Trefoil Seed (Agri) (Lotus Corniculatus) (3kg per acre). Very useful perennial non-bloating Legume. Produces high quality forage (grazing & cutting).

www.hmseeds.co.uk

Beef farmer · Sep 20, 2020

Well that avoided the question

Derrick Hughes · Sep 20, 2020

Beef farmer said:
Well that avoided the question

I've sold mixes with it in yes -
Recommend on sites that dont sites Lucerne
All species that require and grow only well on light land, have been removed such as Lucerne and

Sainfoin

HM.28 Heavy Land Herbal Ley Grass Seed Mix (Acre Pack)
2.20 kg PARDUS Meadow Fescue
2.65 kg FOXTROT Perennial Ryegrass Late Dip
1.85 kg COMER Timothy
1.00 kg FOJTAN Festulolium Hybrid
1.00 kg KORA Tall Fescue
0.20 kg COMMERCIAL Sweet Vernal Grass
1.40 kg MERULA Red Clover
0.40 kg AURORA Alsike Clover
0.25 kg COMMERCIAL Yellow Blossom Clover
0.20 kg LEO Birdsfoot Trefoil
0.70 kg ALICE White Clover
0.40 kg MERLYN White Clover
1.00 kg CANDY Common Vetch
0.25 kg CHOICE Chicory
0.20 kg TONIC Plantain
0.10 kg COMMERCIAL Yarrow
0.10 kg COMMERCIAL Sheeps Parsley
0.10 kg COMMERCIAL Sheeps Burnet
14.00 kg per acre

autumn re-seeding

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