M-J-G
Member
Why would anyone go to the bother of weighing something and not zero the scales?
How many breeds does it take to qualify as a menagerie? So far I've used a 3 way cross, does this qualify?
Rouge or Charollais
- Thread starter Oneman37
- Start date
How many breeds does it take to qualify as a menagerie? So far I've used a 3 way cross, does this qualify?
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
I disagree. It has nothing at all to do with ET and everything to do with creep feeding. Ewes, regardless of breed, don’t need to milk for long if their progeny have access to the tastiest creep from a young age. I know of plenty of folk that don’t ET, but who rear lots of lambs as singles instead.
ET is just a breeding procedure. You can’t blame that procedure for any choices the breeders make. Most of my donors will be well proven ewes that are exceptional for terminal AND maternal traits, hence wanting more females from those lines.
- Location
- Mendips Somerset
no but there is an obvious lack of milk among the show teams , and the use of ET makes it worse , how many of those that use it extensively would rear so many charollais lambs (to sale standard ) if they had to rely on the breed to do it , which in turn makes it self limiting , ET just makes it easy to breed from those very terminal types , which in turn means a higher proportion of those genetics in the breed , , I dont know of one french breeder that uses ET in any breed I've dealt with .
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
Maybe that just says more about our French cousins’ lack of ambition?
It’s just a breeding tool to multiply genetics faster. It can be used for good or bad, like any tool.
Creep feeding will mask poor maternal traits to an extent, which have nowhere to hide if you dare leave them empty.
- Location
- Lancashire
I wouldn't say the French were backward, I was over 20 years ago and they were using AI routinely on commercial farms. One young couple had a bunch AI'd to lamb every month bar August,when they went on holiday. They did admire our stratified breed structure though, over there one breed usually had to do everything
- Location
- central scotland
I like a bit of debate
and we are certainly no experts in the breed, in fact I’m not even sure what variation of the breed is most suited/desirable to our farm
I will say though that there does seem to be a lot of very good charollais sheep out there which is a credit to the breed/breeders. I do take @neilo’s point about rearing lambs having a similar effect to ET we lambed our few charollais 3 weeks in front of the Zwartbles ewes and used the surplus milk to top up (lots of stealing) when the ewes were eating I suppose if we were so inclined the easy way to a faster growth rate would be a straight foster onto a Zwartbles at birth, as it was we managed to rear over 200% lambs (7 ewes) to a fair standard with just a little helping hand.
I really enjoy helping my wife with her projects(sheep) and try to do so to a high standard but they do not pay the bills here so they have to be functional which to be fair they have been so far , maybe one day we will be able to produce something we are proud of that also appeals to others until then we are happy enough to take the trade for the fat lambs (no boys left here this year 🍽)
and we are certainly no experts in the breed, in fact I’m not even sure what variation of the breed is most suited/desirable to our farm I will say though that there does seem to be a lot of very good charollais sheep out there which is a credit to the breed/breeders. I do take @neilo’s point about rearing lambs having a similar effect to ET we lambed our few charollais 3 weeks in front of the Zwartbles ewes and used the surplus milk to top up (lots of stealing) when the ewes were eating I suppose if we were so inclined the easy way to a faster growth rate would be a straight foster onto a Zwartbles at birth, as it was we managed to rear over 200% lambs (7 ewes) to a fair standard with just a little helping hand.I really enjoy helping my wife with her projects(sheep) and try to do so to a high standard but they do not pay the bills here so they have to be functional which to be fair they have been so far , maybe one day we will be able to produce something we are proud of that also appeals to others until then we are happy enough to take the trade for the fat lambs (no boys left here this year 🍽)
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek.
However, it seems a backward idea to me, to only run purebred flocks, whatever they may be, to produce commercial fat lambs. The benefits of hybrid vigour are well documented, and doesn’t need a stratified system to utilise it.
A female line selected heavily for maternal traits, crossed with a terminal sire selected heavily on terminal traits, will always be more efficient than any ‘jack of all trades’ imo, yet is certainly not the norm over the Channel.
- Location
- Mendips Somerset
They do breed their own type mules limosin x suffolk , put back to charollais ,My comment was a bit tongue in cheek.
However, it seems a backward idea to me, to only run purebred flocks, whatever they may be, to produce commercial fat lambs. The benefits of hybrid vigour are well documented, and doesn’t need a stratified system to utilise it.
A female line selected heavily for maternal traits, crossed with a terminal sire selected heavily on terminal traits, will always be more efficient than any ‘jack of all trades’ imo, yet is certainly not the norm over the Channel.
Backward lol .where do you think highly paid signet came up with ram compare , UPRA was doing that in the late 70s , Ai is widely used commercially thats why the data on the pure rams is so good for all breeds , numbers and all that . Meat and milk indexes are pretty accurate, insemovin has loads of data and figures if you know where to look for both beef and sheep of many breeds, the individual breeds testing stations are only very small parts of the puzzle for initial breed selection
Insem Ovin | Insémination animale
1er centre Français pour l'insémination ovine en races bouchères.
www.insemovin.com
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sheep breeder
Member
Maybe that just says more about our French cousins’ lack of ambition?
It’s just a breeding tool to multiply genetics faster. It can be used for good or bad, like any tool.
Creep feeding will mask poor maternal traits to an extent, which have nowhere to hide if you dare leave them empty.
The french ambition is about breeding with ai and equal test station with the top performers being used a cross the breeders. The french stick to the breed standards and no big white heads and brown legs and the pyramid system of selling the new craze, is there one coming up shortly for one breeder who has being playing the pied piper for the last number of years.One ewe show ewe in Ireland never supposedly never had a natural lamb and her ET lambs never bred anything worth while. Agree about the creep feed is milk and grass all in one.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
Too posh to push maybe? Or natural fertility buggered up by ET?
All breeds have a tendency to follow crazes, which usually chases size, but not all breeders do. I would imagine there are some within all breeds that plough a lonely furrow, rather than chase fashion & rosettes.
All well and good sticking to a ‘breed type’, but the French Charollais ‘type’ won’t cut it lambing outside on a Welsh hillside, or even lowland. Those soft buggers have put a lot of people off the breed previously, and those memories persist to this day. I dread to think how many dead boxes I’d have needed this April if I’d been using that type.
- Location
- Mendips Somerset
Plenty of South downs type coats in FranceToo posh to push maybe? Or natural fertility buggered up by ET?
All breeds have a tendency to follow crazes, which usually chases size, but not all breeders do. I would imagine there are some within all breeds that plough a lonely furrow, rather than chase fashion & rosettes.
All well and good sticking to a ‘breed type’, but the French Charollais ‘type’ won’t cut it lambing outside on a Welsh hillside, or even lowland. Those soft buggers have put a lot of people off the breed previously, and those memories persist to this day. I dread to think how many dead boxes I’d have needed this April if I’d been using that type.
M-J-G
Member
Unfortunately the genetics of animals with poor fertility can spread through a breed with ET and IVF.
Which isn't such a problem in Terminal lines, but when it filters through into maternal genetics it's not good IMO
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
Seeing the skin through the coat like that back one would worry me, as an outdoor lamber.
Tight skinned lambs of course, but need to lamb indoors and have space to keep in for a few days in dodgy weather, like we had this April.
- Location
- Mendips Somerset
lol , the one behind is very old (uk bred) ram lent to friend who nearly starved him to death , was to embarrassed to take it to mart, the other a shearling out a hog last may
- Location
- Mendips Somerset
here is biggish commercial flock french suff x charollais ewes
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
The same comment applies. I wouldn't use him on my outdoor lambing ewes, and would struggle to sell a ram with that fleece here, and certainly wouldn't sell him to anyone lambing out. I would only use a ram with a fleece like that to correct any open coated ewes personally.
Horses for courses obviously, your customers & requirements in the SW are likely very different to mine. I consider the extra cover in most 'modern' Charollais to be a huge improvement, although there is a place for all of course, as there is in any breed. Viv la difference (or something like that
).Glad to see he's found the trough.
M-J-G
Member
And both you boys are in the tropics compared with further North.
I see more Char sheep with tufts of wool on their heads these days than I have for some time.
Maybe they'll have a bit more birth coat, but don't a lot of parts in the south discount these in live sales.
I see more Char sheep with tufts of wool on their heads these days than I have for some time.
Maybe they'll have a bit more birth coat, but don't a lot of parts in the south discount these in live sales.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
As above, horses for courses. I can’t sell anything ‘bald’ round here, nor would I use them myself. Further South, particularly for indoor lambing, those types will certainly breed a tight skinned lamb.
Further North, there always seems to be (generally) yet more emphasis on head cover and fleece.
- Location
- Cheshire
Cheviot Mule hoggs with Rouge x lambs. Non born before 12th April. I’m quite pleased with them
- Location
- Fife
Charollais lambs out of draft Welsh. Nothing horn before 02 May.
I'll be using the tups again.