End of the Road for Small Livestock Farms?

Renaultman · Jun 13, 2021

Will 1594 said:
It would be cheaper to have subsidised the coal job and keep the communities going , than pay out welfare and regeneration of those areas look round Barnsley Rotherham , up in Ayrshire
Funkiness rough areas are some of them , drugs etc and all the doss heads on dole

Same around here in Durham. Whole communities decimated, there are slow signs of recovery but it's been 3 decades in the making

Grassman · Jun 13, 2021

Hilly said:
If I want to expand and borrow 2 million , swallow up a small farm and the subsidy is 100k its easy , no subs differ at ball game , subs have allowed them with the pipe dream of being big to get big , subs have accelerated demise of small farm

I remember a thread on here a couple of years ago about what farmers did with the subsidy.
Smaller farmers seemed to need it to keep going. Tenants needed it to give to the landlord.
But there appeared to be quite a few who said they didn't need it and put it in to other businesses and for purchasing more land. Basically their smaller neighbours.
Does seem a crazy way of spending public money.

Derrick Hughes · Jun 13, 2021

BrianV said:
Seems to me the death knell for small farms started when headage payments stopped & you were then payed for each acre you claimed on, easy money if you were rich, the only people who disliked headage payments were the greedy buggers who stuffed their farms with ever more stock just for the payments.
With a cap on numbers we would be free to farm as we wish, & small chaps would be able to at least have a chance. Anyone who thinks what we have just had or going to get is better than headage is walking into a nightmare!

So what would the cap be , per acre per man , it's all been tried , headage was a joke end off ,

Treg · Jun 13, 2021

What road?

Bossfarmer · Jun 13, 2021

Hilly said:
Current system of rewarding folk for owning or renting land is disgusting , as a land owner I sort of like it but as a tax payer its a scandal.

its this kind of attitude that will completely finish ag in this country, inflation is rampant farmers wont be getting the 30-40-50k the general public will in years to come why would any of the youngsters want to come into such a poor paying industry? taking away sub makes us all poorer someone please tell me the upside?????????????????

Chae1 · Jun 13, 2021

Derrick Hughes said:
Is it capped

Not that I'm aware of.

Bossfarmer · Jun 13, 2021

Tim W said:
I disagree
The removal of BPS to a landowner/farmer will not effect how much Sainsburys (for example) have to pay for lamb
They will pay the market price ---& they buy in an international market
It will mean that those producers who have relied on BPS to prop up poor businesses will have choices to make , either
1) to up their game
2) take the govt. ''green shilling'' (if it's worth it)
3) Reinvest their assets elsewhere

I fear for that for many this is only just beginning to sink in & others have yet to realise the reality

what do you mean by "poor businesses"? some of the best business will be hardest hit, anyone thats bn striving and expanding etc taking on mortgages will be worst hit, many of the poorest run businesses will be fine many are debt free and owned

Top Tip. · Jun 13, 2021

glasshouse said:
Support should have been targetted at small farms from the beginning , but the Nfu and cla made sure it went to the big boys

I think you would get a better effect by front loading the payment eg£200/ha for the first 100 ha dropping to £100/ha for the next 100 ha dropping to £50/ha for the next 100/ha with a cap on the amount any business can get.

glasshouse · Jun 13, 2021

Top Tip. said:
I think you would get a better effect by front loading the payment eg£200/ha for the first 100 ha dropping to £100/ha for the next 100 ha dropping to £50/ha for the next 100/ha with a cap on the amount any business can get.

Exactly

HatsOff · Jun 13, 2021

Top Tip. said:
I think you would get a better effect by front loading the payment eg£200/ha for the first 100 ha dropping to £100/ha for the next 100 ha dropping to £50/ha for the next 100/ha with a cap on the amount any business can get.

Far too sensible.
I'm sure that would have been discussed at the time, but I imagine the land owning Lords would have lobbied against it!

glasshouse · Jun 13, 2021

Bossfarmer said:
what do you mean by "poor businesses"? some of the best business will be hardest hit, anyone thats bn striving and expanding etc taking on mortgages will be worst hit, many of the poorest run businesses will be fine many are debt free and owned

Striving and expanding doesnt mean its a good business.
Wanting to own the largest combine in the district seems to be in the business plan of many

BrianV · Jun 13, 2021

Derrick Hughes said:
So what would the cap be , per acre per man , it's all been tried , headage was a joke end off ,

So planting a few trees is a better solution, fine if you have a large estate & can plant 20 or 30 acres, sack a worker & take it easy , not so helpful if you are a real working family farm with a couple of hundred acres.
Cap could be £20k how you get to that figure is questionable but should help genuine farmers the most!!
Land based payments with no cap has been a disaster!

Bossfarmer · Jun 13, 2021

Tim W said:
Might have kept more producers in the game but if they leave then the hole in the market will be filled by another producer? Maybe one who can do it economically

did all the guys that went out of pigs in the 90s get replaced by more efficient pig farmers? if so how come theres none left in this area?

DrWazzock · Jun 13, 2021

Top Tip. said:
I think you would get a better effect by front loading the payment eg£200/ha for the first 100 ha dropping to £100/ha for the next 100 ha dropping to £50/ha for the next 100/ha with a cap on the amount any business can get.

I’d agree with that. Favour the small permanent pasture farmers. £100 per acre for first hundred acres, then taper off. Get the money to where it’s needed.

Humble Village Farmer · Jun 13, 2021

I agree with everything you say except that it's not the Brexit bus, it's the supermarket strangle.

Derrick Hughes · Jun 13, 2021

Chae1 said:
Not that I'm aware of.

So do you keep one big one or ,3 little ones

Bossfarmer · Jun 13, 2021

Hilly said:
If I want to expand and borrow 2 million , swallow up a small farm and the subsidy is 100k its easy , no subs differ at ball game , subs have allowed them with the pipe dream of being big to get big , subs have accelerated demise of small farm

why does farms getting bigger cause the demise of the small farms though? the same amount is being produced just by less people so the smaller guys profits should be unaffected? he can continue on with his small farm if he wishes to do so

BrianV · Jun 13, 2021

Unfortunately the NFU & the CLA should amalgamate as for a long time they have both jumped to the tune of their estate based paymasters, the NFU have no interest in small family farms & have now given up pretending they do!!

digger64 · Jun 13, 2021

Tim W said:
I disagree
The removal of BPS to a landowner/farmer will not effect how much Sainsburys (for example) have to pay for lamb
They will pay the market price ---& they buy in an international market
It will mean that those producers who have relied on BPS to prop up poor businesses will have choices to make , either
1) to up their game
2) take the govt. ''green shilling'' (if it's worth it)
3) Reinvest their assets elsewhere

I fear for that for many this is only just beginning to sink in & others have yet to realise the reality

sub keeps output price lower and input prices higher within the local market place- that means potential margin is LOWER

glasshouse · Jun 13, 2021

Derrick Hughes said:
Is it capped

Yes it is limited to 90 head i think

End of the Road for Small Livestock Farms?

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0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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