Lack of Small Abattoirs

Smith31 · Jul 23, 2021

Woolless said:
CCTV to cover all areas where there are live animals or slaughter taking place is one requirement which is always pointed at. However, these smaller premises may wish to benefit from minimal attendance by FSA staff, in which case reviews of this footage would be required to ensure animal welfare.

@Smith31 may be able to help us with where relaxing legislation would be of practical help.

Its not just legislation, the big abattoirs are working for paper thin margins, the well established mid sized family owned abattoirs are doing extremely well, most made a fortune from the BSE cull so are mortgage free and on a very strong footing.

From a business viewpoint, small abattoirs using minimal automation and machinery simply can't compete. With wages every rising, combined with a shortage of skilled slaughtermen, unfortunately I can't see a profitable future for them.

My personal opinion is that in comparison to building a new abattoir there are far better ways of blowing money i.e race horses, tall slim horsey blondes, shiny machinery, out of warranty Range Rovers.

The best thing about owning an abattoir is when you shut it down the Council planning officers bend over backwards to award you planning permission to build houses, as they are sick of the locals complaining.

delilah · Jul 23, 2021

Smith31 said:
Its not just legislation, the big abattoirs are working for paper thin margins, the well established mid sized family owned abattoirs are doing extremely well, most made a fortune from the BSE cull so are mortgage free and on a very strong footing.

From a business viewpoint, small abattoirs using minimal automation and machinery simply can't compete. With wages every rising, combined with a shortage of skilled slaughtermen, unfortunately I can't see a profitable future for them.

My personal opinion is that in comparison to building a new abattoir there are far better ways of blowing money i.e race horses, tall slim horsey blondes, shiny machinery, out of warranty Range Rovers.

The best thing about owning an abattoir is when you shut it down the Council planning officers bend over backwards to award you planning permission to build houses, as they are sick of the locals complaining.

Good to hear a first hand view. Taking all of that on board then, what are the major legislative cost burdens that an abattoir has to pay ? Say, the top three. With a rough stab at what % of total running costs those three costs would add up to.

Smith31 · Jul 23, 2021

delilah said:
Good to hear a first hand view. Taking all of that on board then, what are the major legislative cost burdens that an abattoir has to pay ? Say, the top three. With a rough stab at what % of total running costs those three costs would add up to.

Inspection costs, waste removal costs and building works costs associated with every changing legislation. Every business is different so % is difficult to calculate, some abattoirs slaughter 400 an hour others slaughter 10 an hour.

delilah · Jul 23, 2021

Smith31 said:
Inspection costs, waste removal costs and building works costs associated with every changing legislation. Every business is different so % is difficult to calculate, some abattoirs slaughter 400 an hour others slaughter 10 an hour.

Sure, can see how they vary greatly in throughput, just trying to see to what extent a sliding scale of charges would be of benefit.
To make the comparison with beer, the small brewers relief scheme gives a 50% cut in beer duty on the first x000 litres brewed, which has helped in the resurgence of regional ales.

To take that example to its extreme level, would you see a 100% relief on inspection costs, and a 100% subsidy on waste removal costs, acting as a stimulant to smaller abattoirs ? What sort of difference would that make to the economics ?

Woolless · Jul 23, 2021

delilah said:
Sure, can see how they vary greatly in throughput, just trying to see to what extent a sliding scale of charges would be of benefit.
To make the comparison with beer, the small brewers relief scheme gives a 50% cut in beer duty on the first x000 litres brewed, which has helped in the resurgence of regional ales.

To take that example to its extreme level, would you see a 100% relief on inspection costs, and a 100% subsidy on waste removal costs, acting as a stimulant to smaller abattoirs ? What sort of difference would that make to the economics ?

There is already a big rebate in place already for inspection costs. If you give 100% relief then I suppose you could end up with a situation where an inspector/OV is standing around all day to inspect a beast and ten sheep, with no financial implication.

Smith31 · Jul 23, 2021

delilah said:
Sure, can see how they vary greatly in throughput, just trying to see to what extent a sliding scale of charges would be of benefit.
To make the comparison with beer, the small brewers relief scheme gives a 50% cut in beer duty on the first x000 litres brewed, which has helped in the resurgence of regional ales.

To take that example to its extreme level, would you see a 100% relief on inspection costs, and a 100% subsidy on waste removal costs, acting as a stimulant to smaller abattoirs ? What sort of difference would that make to the economics ?

If there was 100% relief on inspection and waste there would be no financial reason why small abattoirs could not thrive.

If inspection costs were eliminated abattoir line speeds could be reduced, which would have a beneficial impact on hygiene and animal welfare. I must stress that I am not having a go at the inspection staff, this argument is made from a financial viewpoint, they play an important role within the sector which provides public confidence.

delilah · Jul 23, 2021

Smith31 said:
If there was 100% relief on inspection and waste there would be no financial reason why small abattoirs could not thrive.

Then it looks like that's what the representative bodies should be pushing for.
If such a change in the economics didn't lead to an increase in the provision of regional abattoirs, then at least we would know that it wasn't down to the numbers. But it is the numbers that, surely, needs sorting out first.

sheepdogtrail · Jul 23, 2021

topground said:
That suggests you carry out extensive swabbing and the lab results show your product has no contamination with food poisoning bacteria. Anything else is guesswork because no matter how clean you are as a slaughter man if there is the slightest contamination and if the meat is not looked after properly by the consumer the bacteria will multiply. ‘Killing 99.9% of household germs’ as advertised by the manufacturers of household cleaning products still leaves 0.1% to cause illness and it is only the CCP of cooking adequately that will remove the risk apart from C. Perfringens.

I do swab weekly and I wait for the labs results to come back before I ship. It cost me about $50.00 per week for that. Lab test is $25.00. Swabs are about $8.00 when purchased in kits with 25 swabs. I could make my own cheaper if I wanted or needed too which would reduce the cost a little bit. I do add the value of my time to the process, so in the case of making my own swabs, it is cheaper for me to purchase ready to use ones.

We have to use a antimicrobial rinse on the carcass which will keep microbiology growth down to a acceptable level in regards to food safety. I use a 1:1 ratio of Apple Cider Vinegar and potable water. This gets the ph of the carcass surface down to a inhospitable range for micros to multiply as long as the product (carcass in my case) remains below 6C. My lambs are delivered at 3C.

Now what my customer does after they have received my lamb is up to them. As I do temp each carcass at delivery reception. At that point, I am off the hook in regards to potential liability.

kiwi pom · Jul 25, 2021

delilah said:
Then it looks like that's what the representative bodies should be pushing for.
If such a change in the economics didn't lead to an increase in the provision of regional abattoirs, then at least we would know that it wasn't down to the numbers. But it is the numbers that, surely, needs sorting out first.

Its too easy to just blame the rules and ignore the fact that there are (according to TFF) small abattoirs now, so it must be doable if you want to process your produce locally. The thing that's really stopping you is you don't want to do it and neither does anyone else because its an awful job.
It's the dirty part of the livestock business that farmers don't want to get involved with but expect there to be lots of options when it comes to selling finished stock.
As @Smith31 says if you have the money to set up an abattoir there's far more attractive options, like buying houses, converting buildings or the stock market, which TFF has also shown us.

delilah · Jul 25, 2021

kiwi pom said:
Its too easy to just blame the rules and ignore the fact that there are (according to TFF) small abattoirs now, so it must be doable if you want to process your produce locally. The thing that's really stopping you is you don't want to do it and neither does anyone else because its an awful job.
It's the dirty part of the livestock business that farmers don't want to get involved with but expect there to be lots of options when it comes to selling finished stock.
As @Smith31 says if you have the money to set up an abattoir there's far more attractive options, like buying houses, converting buildings or the stock market, which TFF has also shown us.

I'm not just blaming the rules. As I have said there are other factors at play, but without addressing the rules first we don't know to what extent those other factors also need addressing.
It is too simplistic to say that it must be a viable proposition to open a new one simply because there are small abattoirs already operating. You may as well say why aren't there loads of new entrants in farming. There are, after all, lots of people farming, so what's stopping a new entrant ?
How many of those who are operating small abattoirs today would be looking to start up tomorrow ? That's the more pertinent question. There are barriers, and the one that needs sorting first is the economics.
Because, as said before, all this talk from the great and the good about local food, provenance, blah blah blah is just waffle.

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 25, 2021

kiwi pom said:
Its too easy to just blame the rules and ignore the fact that there are (according to TFF) small abattoirs now, so it must be doable if you want to process your produce locally. The thing that's really stopping you is you don't want to do it and neither does anyone else because its an awful job.
It's the dirty part of the livestock business that farmers don't want to get involved with but expect there to be lots of options when it comes to selling finished stock.
As @Smith31 says if you have the money to set up an abattoir there's far more attractive options, like buying houses, converting buildings or the stock market, which TFF has also shown us.

I'm only aware of 2 within 60 miles of here now. 1 is on a farm near Chelmsford in Essex, 40 miles away. It was opened 20 years ago to serve their growing farm shop and now does kills for small butchers shops and home consumption as well if they have spare capacity. The other is part of a butchers shop in Royston, 30 miles away, and will occasionally fit in a private kill.

We do have Dawn Cardington 30 miles away, part of the Dawn Meats group from Ireland. They are a medium sized plant serving the majors but won't touch private kills. They did do a casualty slaughter for us a few years ago but only after being asked as a favour by an AHDB staff member.

delilah · Jul 25, 2021

We have been told on here that a 100% relief on inspection costs and a 100% subsidy of waste removal would make small abattoirs financially attractive.
OK, lets do it. For 5 years. See how the sector responds to such support.
What would it cost ? Less than 1% of the ELMS budget ?
Surely the most useful way to spend the money, as without structural change in the food chain large chucks of ELMS are just wishful thinking.
All meaningful change is demand driven.

Danllan · Jul 25, 2021

Poorbuthappy said:
Just to be a bit more positive, there are 5 or 6 within 30 miles of here. Some come more recommended than others shall we say
We've used 3 of them and happy to stick with either of 2.
None are really close, but chatted to a young couple some months ago who were keen to set up a new one . Whether it gets off the ground time will tell.

Shouldn't laugh, but couldn't help it; never surprised to hear about a young couple wanting to get a place and start farming but... imagine the scene as they walk hand in hand down a flower-bordered and secluded country lane of an evening, they turn to each other, look deep into the other's eyes and one drops the magic question: 'Shall we start a slaughterhouse together?'

Woolless said:
Mobile abattoir apparently in the pipeline here. Hope it works out. I think I remember reading that it would cost £500/day to operate. If that includes two decent slaughtermen, then it will be be a marginal proposition.

Good set up. Many years ago - perhaps still going - there was a system in Zambia with a few trucks, the park authorities would cull game, be it elephant, buff or whatever, and they lot was bled, cut hung, chilled, processed and canned in one go. It was a major PR victory with locals who got free meat and helped get rid of poachers. Probably overkill for most though...

holwellcourtfarm said:
That's alot of talk of mobile units in the UK. It'll only work if a lower compliance burden is allowed though. Having to have one of Eville &Jones's veterinary inspectors on site while killing would be a huge cost for the small throughput.

I think there are starting to be moves that will allow this to be avoided via permanent CCTV during operating times, and the use of 'trained' operatives, spot checks and samples. Won't be popular with vets, but will with everyone else. I know that a couple of ministerial ears have been bent by a lot of MPs, and they have seemed open to the suggestion. My guess is that it will 'floated' publicly to see what the public reaction will be, and that will the decider...

Woolless · Jul 25, 2021

Danllan said:
Shouldn't laugh, but couldn't help it; never surprised to hear about a young couple wanting to get a place and start farming but... imagine the scene as they walk hand in hand down a flower-bordered and secluded country lane of an evening, they turn to each other, look deep into the other's eyes and one drops the magic question: 'Shall we start a slaughterhouse together?'

Good set up. Many years ago - perhaps still going - there was a system in Zambia with a few trucks, the park authorities would cull game, be it elephant, buff or whatever, and they lot was bled, cut hung, chilled, processed and canned in one go. It was a major PR victory with locals who got free meat and helped get rid of poachers. Probably overkill for most though...

I think there are starting to be moves that will allow this to be avoided via permanent CCTV during operating times, and the use of 'trained' operatives, spot checks and samples. Won't be popular with vets, but will with everyone else. I know that a couple of ministerial ears have been bent by a lot of MPs, and they have seemed open to the suggestion. My guess is that it will 'floated' publicly to see what the public reaction will be, and that will the decider...

Interesting. However, there have been a number of incidents over the past few years where covert surveillance by animal rights groups has uncovered welfare breaches the OV was apparently oblivious to. Watering down attendance requirements is unlikely to do much to help that. However, there is already smaller plants which operate 'cold inspection'. OV required to carry out ante-mortem inspection then a meat inspector comes later on to inspect all the carcasses at once.

Danllan · Jul 26, 2021

Woolless said:
Interesting. However, there have been a number of incidents over the past few years where covert surveillance by animal rights groups has uncovered welfare breaches the OV was apparently oblivious to. Watering down attendance requirements is unlikely to do much to help that. However, there is already smaller plants which operate 'cold inspection'. OV required to carry out ante-mortem inspection then a meat inspector comes later on to inspect all the carcasses at once.

Yes, another step in the right direction. My understanding is that things are not intended to return to where we were in, say, 1980 but, rather, to try to facilitate the size of set-up that was common then, but with current welfare and health standards. I don't think this need necessarily be as difficult as some might think and others might hope...

kiwi pom · Jul 26, 2021

delilah said:
We have been told on here that a 100% relief on inspection costs and a 100% subsidy of waste removal would make small abattoirs financially attractive.
OK, lets do it. For 5 years. See how the sector responds to such support.
What would it cost ? Less than 1% of the ELMS budget ?
Surely the most useful way to spend the money, as without structural change in the food chain large chucks of ELMS are just wishful thinking.
All meaningful change is demand driven.

Good idea

Now who wants to own and run a slaughterhouse?

delilah · Jul 26, 2021

kiwi pom said:
Good idea
Now who wants to own and run a slaughterhouse?

Well, as said, lets sort the numbers out and then see who if anyone steps up. The one we use, the chap worked at Anglo Dutch and left to set up on his own, that was over 20 years ago, i've never asked him whether he would do the same today but from what folks say about the economics as they stand today it would seem doubtful.

Does anyone on here know Sir Don Curry ? Was on the radio this morning talking about the need for ELMS to support small farms, he's the sort of figure who needs to be on board with this.

topground · Jul 26, 2021

Historically local authorities owned slaughterhouses to supply their local area. Although most councillors couldn’t run a whelk stall the government may well have to legislate for local provision and be prepared to subsidise the operation for the benefit of animal welfare, reduced food miles, food security and the local economy.
Most industrial estates will have buildings with yards that could be adapted so no need for a greenfield site. It is the role of government to make difficult decisions and put in place infrastructure for the benefit of the community at large . Local slaughtering capacity is part of that essential infrastructure. The problem is we do not have politicians that have the capacity to make this happen in the face of noisy single issue groups and a population that thinks it’s food comes from the supermarket.

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 26, 2021

kiwi pom said:
Good idea
Now who wants to own and run a slaughterhouse?

I'd be willing to buy shares in a farmer owned one, say £100,000.

I have no interest in running one, I'm a farmer not a processor.

Are any of the NZ meat plants farmer owned?

sheepdogtrail · Jul 26, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
I'd be willing to buy shares in a farmer owned one, say £100,000.

I have no interest in running one, I'm a farmer not a processor.

Are any of the NZ meat plants farmer owned?

I know there used to be farmer owned processing plants in NZ. That was at least a decade ago. Not sure where things currently stand in regards to farmer owned processing plants in NZ. It is not my business to know.

Most of the mobile plants here in USA are farmer owned via cooperatives. Like any co-op, some work well, while others struggle.

I am a Shepard.

I farm so I can take care of my sheep. Part of that is being able to process them and although I do not enjoy that part of my business, I feel gratitude and remorse at the same time. I am the first and last human they see in life and I get to experience it fully on a daily basis. So I am thankful and feel blessed that I (me) was able to do that. I would like to think that this is the best way for my animals. To me, it seems that way, given the other options. But there still remains remorse in that I just took the life of my beautiful animal that I spent the previous 6 months with on a daily basis.

In the end, I suppose it is all about Shepherding my animals through life. Giving them the respect and care they deserve all the way to the very end. They sure earned it.

Lack of Small Abattoirs

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Up to 25%

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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