"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

som farmer · May 4, 2022

Woolless said:
If I was critical, I would say that your stocking density could do with going up

at least they look as if they cannot get out. The best fenced field, l ever rented for sheep, was in two parts, 4 acres, with an 8ft, heavy duty chain link fence, dug in 12 ins, the second bit, .5ac, was the same, but had 8x4ft, sheets of flat tin, on the top half, with barbed wire angled out. The sheep never got out ! It was designed by sir Peter Scott, to rear waterfowl, for past owners, as a 'feeder place' for Slimbridge, not sure if it was ever used.

Walking grass today, with our nutritionist, who tells us, every year, sheep must be gone by early jan, at the latest. They left 14 march, and every year comments on how the grass looks good.

We have to take out, a lot more grass, from our grazing platform, for silage, we simply wont get around it all, huge amounts. Some of that grass hasn't had any N, some 30 units N, we decided to 'miss' 1st application, and put some on, after grazing, 25/30 units. We had a really good discussion, re grass, and growth, going by growth, and colour, of grass, dark green, and the amount of clover present, advocating missing the next round of fert, the clover is supplying enough N ! Both grazing, and cutting ground, are the same. Cutting ground will get slurry, and a 'bit' of fert, not that convinced.

The question was asked, has the clover growth exploded, because no N fix, was applied to give the grass, its early growth, which then didn't 'smother' out the clover. Next door is an organic farm, certainly their 1st cut, just taken, was nowhere near the colour of our grass, nor so much.
Is the organic system, of clovers, green mulch, dung and plough, missing a trick, a lot of our leys are either min-til, or dd, does the non inversion of soil, allow the clover, to work at full bore, letting its root system develop. I don't know the answers, l would like to, but farmers never ever stop learning. For me, its way out of my 'comfort' zone, will it happen again next year ? Might get really pissy if it does, will remind me of the hundreds of tons of fert, l have chucked on here, over the decades, that l could have saved that money !

Whatever the cause, its nice to see, and happening when fert has become a very expensive product, timed perfectly for that. And our nutritionist, who does a lot of work with M&S, reckons milk will get to 50ppl, and if we can continue to save money, like we are, its a double win, roll on sensible farming.

Poorbuthappy · May 4, 2022

Samcowman said:
Have yours finished your lawn and looking for another then?

Been round the lawn once, now a little piece just off the edge in the field before coming back onto lawn

Will only be about a 25 day rotation though

This is a few ewes who's lambs need topping up.

Sheila Cooke · May 4, 2022

Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice

A Public Talk with Walter Jehne of Regenerate Earth

11th of May 2022

2:00 to 4:00 PM

Venue: The Institute of Civil Engineers, 1 Great George Street, Westminster, London SW1P 3AA

Regardless of the sector in which you operate we are all being invited to contribute significantly to the achievement of a biologically viable planet. We all have much to learn from many sources. Walter Jehne offers significant insights through established science, disruptive design solutions and culture-shifting metrics.

Joining a public session with Walter Jehne will expose you to established yet little known science accompanied by highly practical insights into how we can handle the most significant existential issues of our time with grace and ease.

Whether your enquiry is about your industry's continued viability in the face of climate change; managing risk; securing quality food, water and air; or understanding the root cause of climate change, this session is a rare opportunity your you to achieve fresh clarity and inspiration.

Walter will speak on the topic of “Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice” and allow plenty of time for your questions.

About the event:
The venue is in Central London. We ask that you arrive at least 10 minutes before the start of the event.

Entrance fee: £25 per person, including VAT. (After you enter your address into the booking system, the VAT will be added to the price).

Seating is limited to 120 people, so book early!

REGISTER

cows sh#t me to tears · May 5, 2022

som farmer said:
at least they look as if they cannot get out. The best fenced field, l ever rented for sheep, was in two parts, 4 acres, with an 8ft, heavy duty chain link fence, dug in 12 ins, the second bit, .5ac, was the same, but had 8x4ft, sheets of flat tin, on the top half, with barbed wire angled out. The sheep never got out ! It was designed by sir Peter Scott, to rear waterfowl, for past owners, as a 'feeder place' for Slimbridge, not sure if it was ever used.

Walking grass today, with our nutritionist, who tells us, every year, sheep must be gone by early jan, at the latest. They left 14 march, and every year comments on how the grass looks good.

We have to take out, a lot more grass, from our grazing platform, for silage, we simply wont get around it all, huge amounts. Some of that grass hasn't had any N, some 30 units N, we decided to 'miss' 1st application, and put some on, after grazing, 25/30 units. We had a really good discussion, re grass, and growth, going by growth, and colour, of grass, dark green, and the amount of clover present, advocating missing the next round of fert, the clover is supplying enough N ! Both grazing, and cutting ground, are the same. Cutting ground will get slurry, and a 'bit' of fert, not that convinced.

The question was asked, has the clover growth exploded, because no N fix, was applied to give the grass, its early growth, which then didn't 'smother' out the clover. Next door is an organic farm, certainly their 1st cut, just taken, was nowhere near the colour of our grass, nor so much.
Is the organic system, of clovers, green mulch, dung and plough, missing a trick, a lot of our leys are either min-til, or dd, does the non inversion of soil, allow the clover, to work at full bore, letting its root system develop. I don't know the answers, l would like to, but farmers never ever stop learning. For me, its way out of my 'comfort' zone, will it happen again next year ? Might get really pissy if it does, will remind me of the hundreds of tons of fert, l have chucked on here, over the decades, that l could have saved that money !

Whatever the cause, its nice to see, and happening when fert has become a very expensive product, timed perfectly for that. And our nutritionist, who does a lot of work with M&S, reckons milk will get to 50ppl, and if we can continue to save money, like we are, its a double win, roll on sensible farming.

I've said it before. And I'll say it again. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've spread urea, and that was on pure grass stands. ALL our winter annuals of ARG and clover NEVER get a hit of nitrogen. Used to be 250kg/h of single super pre starting of autumn irrigation. Now it's just gypsum. Clover doesn't like urea full stop. If you use it all the time you won't see any after a while.

cows sh#t me to tears · May 5, 2022

som farmer said:
at least they look as if they cannot get out. The best fenced field, l ever rented for sheep, was in two parts, 4 acres, with an 8ft, heavy duty chain link fence, dug in 12 ins, the second bit, .5ac, was the same, but had 8x4ft, sheets of flat tin, on the top half, with barbed wire angled out. The sheep never got out ! It was designed by sir Peter Scott, to rear waterfowl, for past owners, as a 'feeder place' for Slimbridge, not sure if it was ever used.

Walking grass today, with our nutritionist, who tells us, every year, sheep must be gone by early jan, at the latest. They left 14 march, and every year comments on how the grass looks good.

We have to take out, a lot more grass, from our grazing platform, for silage, we simply wont get around it all, huge amounts. Some of that grass hasn't had any N, some 30 units N, we decided to 'miss' 1st application, and put some on, after grazing, 25/30 units. We had a really good discussion, re grass, and growth, going by growth, and colour, of grass, dark green, and the amount of clover present, advocating missing the next round of fert, the clover is supplying enough N ! Both grazing, and cutting ground, are the same. Cutting ground will get slurry, and a 'bit' of fert, not that convinced.

The question was asked, has the clover growth exploded, because no N fix, was applied to give the grass, its early growth, which then didn't 'smother' out the clover. Next door is an organic farm, certainly their 1st cut, just taken, was nowhere near the colour of our grass, nor so much.
Is the organic system, of clovers, green mulch, dung and plough, missing a trick, a lot of our leys are either min-til, or dd, does the non inversion of soil, allow the clover, to work at full bore, letting its root system develop. I don't know the answers, l would like to, but farmers never ever stop learning. For me, its way out of my 'comfort' zone, will it happen again next year ? Might get really pissy if it does, will remind me of the hundreds of tons of fert, l have chucked on here, over the decades, that l could have saved that money !

Whatever the cause, its nice to see, and happening when fert has become a very expensive product, timed perfectly for that. And our nutritionist, who does a lot of work with M&S, reckons milk will get to 50ppl, and if we can continue to save money, like we are, its a double win, roll on sensible farming.

Global trade dropped 8.5% Tuesday night. Arsehole analyst's here are trying to talk down step ups for this year and good prices for next already. Won't be any farmers left if they keep that up.

som farmer · May 5, 2022

cows sh#t me to tears said:
I've said it before. And I'll say it again. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've spread urea, and that was on pure grass stands. ALL our winter annuals of ARG and clover NEVER get a hit of nitrogen. Used to be 250kg/h of single super pre starting of autumn irrigation. Now it's just gypsum. Clover doesn't like urea full stop. If you use it all the time you won't see any after a while.

for us 'oldies' its harder to break habits of a lifetime ! Brought up to use lots of N, its just the way we grow grass ! Or it was. I am truly surprised by the amount of grass we have, that's one thing, the other is the colour, its a dark green, so its obvious its getting its N fix from somewhere, and that is from slurry/clover.
Just shows how we do some things, because we always do it like that, fert was, a relatively cheap input, so used lots, it produced the grass/corn. I cut back, when we were put into an Nitrate Sensitive Zone, strict limits apply, not a bad thing, you had to justify the use, of N and slurry, and that promoted clover, well perhaps they were talking some sense !
There are some nice financial fallouts, from less fert usage, if we can cut back on use, as there are with the increasing of clover, grass samples are all reading high grass protein, so silage could be high quality. However, the cows are indicating low protein, and we have gone back to a 19% dairy cake, and they are responding to it, so nothing is ever simple.

cows sh#t me to tears said:
Global trade dropped 8.5% Tuesday night. Arsehole analyst's here are trying to talk down step ups for this year and good prices for next already. Won't be any farmers left if they keep that up.

there is/must be, shortage of milk here in the UK, we will be on 43.81ppl for our june milk, definitely in new territory, that's for 4.3p and 3.4pro, plus the 'assurance' bits, buggers are putting more value on protein, which is harder to lift. AMPE, a measure of cost of production, is running at 54ppl, one local processor, is paying AMPE less 2p, on over 'estimated' amounts, 52ppl sounds beautiful.

What l cannot quite understand, is milk is short, barren cows are desperately short, the best cows, are up with prime, on a p/kg basis. Dairy cows are serious money, so more cows about, producing less milk ............ Somewhere its out of pattern. The next thing, milk taps will be opened up, and price will fall.

som farmer · May 5, 2022

Sheila Cooke said:
Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice
A Public Talk with Walter Jehne of Regenerate Earth

11th of May 2022
2:00 to 4:00 PM
Venue: The Institute of Civil Engineers, 1 Great George Street, Westminster, London SW1P 3AA

Regardless of the sector in which you operate we are all being invited to contribute significantly to the achievement of a biologically viable planet. We all have much to learn from many sources. Walter Jehne offers significant insights through established science, disruptive design solutions and culture-shifting metrics.

Joining a public session with Walter Jehne will expose you to established yet little known science accompanied by highly practical insights into how we can handle the most significant existential issues of our time with grace and ease.

Whether your enquiry is about your industry's continued viability in the face of climate change; managing risk; securing quality food, water and air; or understanding the root cause of climate change, this session is a rare opportunity your you to achieve fresh clarity and inspiration.

Walter will speak on the topic of “Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice” and allow plenty of time for your questions.

About the event:
The venue is in Central London. We ask that you arrive at least 10 minutes before the start of the event.

Entrance fee: £25 per person, including VAT. (After you enter your address into the booking system, the VAT will be added to the price).

Seating is limited to 120 people, so book early!

REGISTER

well, won't be able to get to that,
coming to the conclusion, regen, or sensible farming, is best learnt by trial and error, its only when we 'try' things, that we don't 'really' think will work, but do, it leads to trying 'other' things. For a majority of farmers, it all sounds to good to be true, and like us, its better to ease in, rather than jump in, and progress, as you see results, and you are comfortable with.
The above session, will provide a lot of good information, but it also looks like the beginning of a set of 'rules', and that is not so good.

Henarar · May 5, 2022

Ewes and lambs back in the wilderness after a 5 month break

cows sh#t me to tears · May 5, 2022

som farmer said:
for us 'oldies' its harder to break habits of a lifetime ! Brought up to use lots of N, its just the way we grow grass ! Or it was. I am truly surprised by the amount of grass we have, that's one thing, the other is the colour, its a dark green, so its obvious its getting its N fix from somewhere, and that is from slurry/clover.
Just shows how we do some things, because we always do it like that, fert was, a relatively cheap input, so used lots, it produced the grass/corn. I cut back, when we were put into an Nitrate Sensitive Zone, strict limits apply, not a bad thing, you had to justify the use, of N and slurry, and that promoted clover, well perhaps they were talking some sense !
There are some nice financial fallouts, from less fert usage, if we can cut back on use, as there are with the increasing of clover, grass samples are all reading high grass protein, so silage could be high quality. However, the cows are indicating low protein, and we have gone back to a 19% dairy cake, and they are responding to it, so nothing is ever simple.

there is/must be, shortage of milk here in the UK, we will be on 43.81ppl for our june milk, definitely in new territory, that's for 4.3p and 3.4pro, plus the 'assurance' bits, buggers are putting more value on protein, which is harder to lift. AMPE, a measure of cost of production, is running at 54ppl, one local processor, is paying AMPE less 2p, on over 'estimated' amounts, 52ppl sounds beautiful.

What l cannot quite understand, is milk is short, barren cows are desperately short, the best cows, are up with prime, on a p/kg basis. Dairy cows are serious money, so more cows about, producing less milk ............ Somewhere its out of pattern. The next thing, milk taps will be opened up, and price will fall.

What our nutritionist has always said (and we knew this loooonnnnnggggg before we started with him ) is the more urea you use, the more you need to swim at the same level. Stick with the clover in the leys. Even if you need to drill 4 to 5 kgs in each year. It pays its way. Just from a multi speicies sward it's worth it. I've seen numerous times when one out shines the other. This year the clover is leaps and bounds ahead of the rye grass. Next year it might be the other way round. No 2 years are the same...

som farmer · May 5, 2022

cows sh#t me to tears said:
What our nutritionist has always said (and we knew this loooonnnnnggggg before we started with him ) is the more urea you use, the more you need to swim at the same level. Stick with the clover in the leys. Even if you need to drill 4 to 5 kgs in each year. It pays its way. Just from a multi speicies sward it's worth it. I've seen numerous times when one out shines the other. This year the clover is leaps and bounds ahead of the rye grass. Next year it might be the other way round. No 2 years are the same...

and that's one of the biggest downers about farming, no 2 years are the same.
but we intend to add lots of clover, everywhere.
R/clover is trickier, because of v/wilt, meaning it needs a break, probably new varieties might over come that. The next question, how high a clover to grass ratio, can you get, before cows start bloating on it, or what can we do, to stop bloat.

cows sh#t me to tears · May 5, 2022

I'm aware you are unable to use rumensin over there. It has been a game changer for us (from a management point of view) . As said, we have been winter clover dominant for 49 years here. But only fed in the bail for 20. So , pre rotary and bail feeding it was feed hay out early and check cows till mid morning. After that they were fine.

Bloat oil and a bloatvstabber were mandatory kit pre feeding....

Karliboy · May 5, 2022

23 may 2021 cold but damp spring and around 25kg/acre off 201010
This was my first cell off 2021

Same place 3rd may 22 and no fert with a cold dry spring

it just looks so much better and we are 20 days earlier in the year.
My first cell this year was the 24 April.
really starting to see the changes at the start of the year.

Karliboy · May 5, 2022

Ive decided to take it down fairly tight as there’s a lot of stalk and seed heads already just to give everything that reset and clean up after winter rest.
i have around 30 days in front in cells at current covers but no doubt that will extend further going forwards before I even hit my set stocked hill land which will work in great as they can have a month or so up there while I’m at groundswell and summer holidays to make things easy for the old man. Thats the plan to start with and gets me to middle of July.

som farmer · May 5, 2022

Whether its the year, or not, improvement seems to happen, and visually, very quickly, mother nature must be a nice, forgiving old soul.

on the dairy thread, someone's quoting soil temps etc for clover to grow, and how no N is available early. Might post a few pics, for him.

Henarar · May 5, 2022

Some nice pasture and nice views there @Karliboy

Gulli · May 5, 2022

som farmer said:
Whether its the year, or not, improvement seems to happen, and visually, very quickly, mother nature must be a nice, forgiving old soul.

on the dairy thread, someone's quoting soil temps etc for clover to grow, and how no N is available early. Might post a few pics, for him.

Depends what you count as early. Don't see a lot of clover growth on the first round here after winter but more often than not it'll fly away with the regrowth once the cattle have been over it to wake the soil up

Tyedyetom · May 5, 2022

Henarar said:
Do cattle eat bluebells ?View attachment 1031634

Just caught up again! Move to our new place end of March, nearly got the dairy ready, we’ve got a small suckler her till we can start milking. These girls we climbing the hedge to get to the bluebells this morning when I moved the fence, self medicating?

Rossymons · May 5, 2022

So still no rain in the forecast and we are seriously dry now. No danger of my 10 acres being drilled anytime soon.

So what to do?

I've thought about planting different things but realistically a lack of moisture will hamper anything not already in the ground.

What I am considering though maybe drilling the herbal mix (7 acres) and put the remaining 3 acres into a winter forage crop - stubbles for instance.

The 3 acres is next to the yard so easy for grazing - leave the gate open and the cattle and can come and go as they please. Lock them in the yard to move the fence, easy peasy.

My thinking is that a late drilling date = late utilisation date. If my season is being pushed back to September/October then why not plant something that I can utilise well in those months and possibly later? So long as it's not poached to hell it's ready for reseeding March time.

Thoughts please

Samcowman · May 5, 2022

How about a diverse crop rather than just turnips for those 3 acres? Sounds like a plan though.
rightly or wrongly I have 15 acres of Italian and annual clovers gone in this week after veg boys decided late they didn’t want it. Down tomorrow to roll in and bring some stuff down. Ground hasn’t been moved much so hopefully the rain is still there from the weekend and we catch some more soon.

Rossymons · May 5, 2022

The rain we bad here (about 5 miles as the crow goes) was nothing spectacular over the weekend. I write my name in the dirt and what we did have has all gone now.

That said, yours probably went in with wet feet so will grow something.

Regards my stubbles idea...what else could I do?

An old neighbour of ours grew a crop that he was adamant yielded a massive amount of stuff back in the 70s/80s and gave me the book on it. Of course I've moved house twice and office 3 times since so I cant find it

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice​

A Public Talk with Walter Jehne of Regenerate Earth​

11th of May 2022​

2:00 to 4:00 PM​

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A Public Talk with Walter Jehne of Regenerate Earth​

11th of May 2022​

2:00 to 4:00 PM​

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Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice

A Public Talk with Walter Jehne of Regenerate Earth

11th of May 2022

2:00 to 4:00 PM

Clear Directions on Regenerative Practice

A Public Talk with Walter Jehne of Regenerate Earth

11th of May 2022

2:00 to 4:00 PM