Red tractor audit

sjt01 · Jun 7, 2022

Andy26 said:
Testing against a known sample or a ring calibrated meter is the only real way.

Not sure how two neighbours testing wildly inaccurate meters would help!?

Or if you've got some really accurate scales, weigh out some grain, put it in the oven at 200c for a day, then weigh it again, the weight difference will enable you to calculate the water content, thus you have your own oven dried, 'known sample', to calibrate against.

Definitely NOT 200°C, perhaps 200°F. The official method is 105°C. At 200, you will be driving off organic matter, and will show the sample as artificially high moisture.
Also you should dry to constant weight, so after say 12 hours, weigh the sample, and again in another 3 hours. If no weight loss between the two, then you are there, otherwise do another 3 hours and repeat until constant weight.

Andy26 · Jun 7, 2022

sjt01 said:
Definitely NOT 200°C, perhaps 200°F. The official method is 105°C. At 200, you will be driving off organic matter, and will show the sample as artificially high moisture.
Also you should dry to constant weight, so after say 12 hours, weigh the sample, and again in another 3 hours. If no weight loss between the two, then you are there, otherwise do another 3 hours and repeat until constant weight.

I was using artistic licence

sjt01 · Jun 7, 2022

Andy26 said:
I was using artistic licence

I never passed the test for an artistic licence!

farmerm · Jun 7, 2022

Barleymow said:
Tell em your leaving its a con

they wont care, pretty disinterested when I didnt renew on livestock, but good luck getting a grain buyer for none FA grain

robbie · Jun 7, 2022

sjt01 said:
I never passed the test for an artistic licence!

Oh dear, you do know it's going to be added to the RT audit very soon!!!
Most already have one but for anyone without it's a major non conformity!!!!!!

Against_the_grain · Jun 7, 2022

Why on earth wouldnt you have a calibrated Moisture Meter?! Some serious money to be lost if its wrong!

snarling bee · Jun 7, 2022

^^^^ Exactly

I fail to understand why a few think it good business to check against a neighbours meter, who has checked against his neighbours who had it checked in 1998. This has FA to do with RT, its about saving money.
Calibration costs £20.

Grass And Grain · Jun 7, 2022

Just calibrate to a known sample. Get it from your friendly merchant, or get friendly merchant to test one of your samples, then you test the same sample.

We've got an Infratester, so just calibrate to that.

Quite important to know how your meter is reading. What's not important is writing it down, but RT think it is important to write it down

, just so they've got something to inspect.

I'm told OSR can be variety specific and season specific, so be aware of this.

Grass And Grain · Jun 7, 2022

Really annoys me RT have an arbitrary list of 'things' to record, which takes absolutely no account of other eventualities or use of common sense.

RT inspection...
"Is the grain store dry, sound, vermin proof etc?" Tick.

"Records of moistures and temperatures?" Tick.

"Concrete apron so loader wheels don't fetch gravel into store?" Tick.

RT pass, given certificate of conformity and sheets of stickers.

Next day loader driver knocks store wall over, grain spilled out all over the place. You've still got your stickers, but common sense says don't load the spilled bit, because it's mixed up with lumps of concrete.

Not the best example, but the 12 month audit only really provides about 30% assurance. The rest is common sense for the other 364 days, yet we've all got our stickers for 365 days.

if your moisture meter toasts itself on first day of harvest, none of us would carry on without getting a replacement (just because we'd passed the RT inspection and had a calibrated meter on that day), we'd sort it out. And we'd manage to sort it out ourselves without any help from RT.

But we can't possibly sell grain without stickers unless we've passed the single day inspection. It's crazy really. If they believe everything needs inspecting to assure it's safe, then the inspector needs to be there 365 days.

Hampton · Jun 7, 2022

Grass And Grain said:
Really annoys me RT have an arbitrary list of 'things' to record, which takes absolutely no account of other eventualities or use of common sense.

RT inspection...
"Is the grain store dry, sound, vermin proof etc?" Tick.

"Records of moistures and temperatures?" Tick.

"Concrete apron so loader wheels don't fetch gravel into store?" Tick.

RT pass, given certificate of conformity and sheets of stickers.

Next day loader driver knocks store wall over, grain spilled out all over the place. You've still got your stickers, but common sense says don't load the spilled bit, because it's mixed up with lumps of concrete.

Not the best example, but the 12 month audit only really provides about 30% assurance. The rest is common sense for the other 364 days, yet we've all got our stickers for 365 days.

if your moisture meter toasts itself on first day of harvest, none of us would carry on without getting a replacement (just because we'd passed the RT inspection and had a calibrated meter on that day), we'd sort it out. And we'd manage to sort it out ourselves without any help from RT.

But we can't possibly sell grain without stickers unless we've passed the single day inspection. It's crazy really. If they believe everything needs inspecting to assure it's safe, then the inspector needs to be there 365 days.

Although I understand where you are coming from, surely all exams are just on the day.
Take A levels, how many retain the knowledge or just remember it for the exam etc

DRC · Jun 7, 2022

benny6910 said:
Thanks everybody I shall probably try using my own samples and see why the outcome is next week.

I just write down that I test mine against a couple of neighbours meters.
@bobk how do you know when to start combining

7610 super q · Jun 7, 2022

I get one of those check samples linked in a post above. Always tallies nicely with my own meter ( within 0.1-0.2 % ), and that on a hired grain drier.

Most strangely, it varies enormously ( 2% sometimes ) when I send samples to merchants.

I agree it's important to calibrate the meter, but I can do it all on my own without RT breathing down my neck.
I do wonder what the point is though, when my calibrated meter varies so much against merchants.

The whole thing stinks from top to bottom.

Against_the_grain · Jun 7, 2022

I really don't get the whole negativity towards red tractor. Yes there are a lot of pointless question/tickboxes but on the whole it provides a standard for produce. I dread to think gow bad some farms would be without it.

Grass And Grain · Jun 7, 2022

Hampton said:
Although I understand where you are coming from, surely all exams are just on the day.
Take A levels, how many retain the knowledge or just remember it for the exam etc

Well that's right. Suppose same as way we want the restaurant to be inspected by food hygiene and given a rating. Means the restaurant has procedures in place, but only procedures the inspection authority thought of.

Farms are inspected by trading standards, EA, etc. to make sure we're following the laws of food production. Exactly same as way goverent send food hygiene over to the kebab shop. Kebab shop passes, farm has also passed.

Customer is king. If they want independent RT, then we've to provide it.

Each year I'm asked to show records of washing and disinfecting my grain bucket. Great, no problem, but all it shows is I've disinfected my grain bucket. I didn't really need to write that down, but it keeps RT in with a job, and keeps their cash flow healthy.

Now I've never ever been asked to write down I power washed and disinfected the loader wheels before I loaded the grain, even though I'd just been mucking out the Salmonella ridden poultry house. I'd not been asked for a record of this because RT haven't thought about this one. But I'd do it anyway because it's common sense.

Which goes back to the original point of what was the point of a written record of grain bucket cleaning, and the fact someone looked at this record on 1 of the 365 days of the year.

There's lots of things we do to keep food safe by using our common sense, and none of those are in a RT audit. So is the RT audit any use at all, as it doesn't have a tick box check for my loader wheels.

It's records and tick box driven rather than results driven. The result we all want is provision of safe food, covering all eventualities. A tick box list is never going to cover them all, and therefore is only ever going to provide about 30% of the provisions we need imho.

Grass And Grain · Jun 7, 2022

Against_the_grain said:
I really don't get the whole negativity towards red tractor. Yes there are a lot of pointless question/tickboxes but on the whole it provides a standard for produce. I dread to think gow bad some farms would be without it.

Read my post #34 above. How has RT protected the grain safety with my loader wheels. It's a real on farm issue, and RT haven't got a single tick box for it.

It's salmonella spp. soup.

Grass And Grain · Jun 7, 2022

Against_the_grain said:
I really don't get the whole negativity towards red tractor. Yes there are a lot of pointless question/tickboxes but on the whole it provides a standard for produce. I dread to think gow bad some farms would be without it.

And RT grain is all blended together in a central store. A farmer loses RT status because of a serious non-conformance (1 in 14 do so), but all the grain gets loaded out as RT grain to the buyer, even though it should be all loaded out as non-RT grain because it's contaminated with the failed consignment. So the end consumer isn't getting the RT grain they've paid for. No-one does anything about this. It's misdescriptions imho.

So RT isn't so good after all. In fact, it's quite hopeless, it's pointless of it's getting loaded out as RT when it knowingly isn't RT. Some would say it was trade descriptions to do that. And if it's as hopeless as I've just described, then what is the point in me and others paying up to RT?

davidroberts30 · Jun 7, 2022

7610 super q said:
I get one of those check samples linked in a post above. Always tallies nicely with my own meter ( within 0.1-0.2 % ), and that on a hired grain drier.
Most strangely, it varies enormously ( 2% sometimes ) when I send samples to merchants.

I agree it's important to calibrate the meter, but I can do it all on my own without RT breathing down my neck.
I do wonder what the point is though, when my calibrated meter varies so much against merchants.

The whole thing stinks from top to bottom.

want to borrow my marconi

robs1 · Jun 7, 2022

Against_the_grain said:
I really don't get the whole negativity towards red tractor. Yes there are a lot of pointless question/tickboxes but on the whole it provides a standard for produce. I dread to think gow bad some farms would be without it.

If it's bad then no one would buy it.just because a family passes doesnt mean to say its good

Drillman · Jun 7, 2022

Just write down that it’s been calibrated. With a date.

that’s all there interested in

SilliamWhale · Jun 7, 2022

Against_the_grain said:
I really don't get the whole negativity towards red tractor. Yes there are a lot of pointless question/tickboxes but on the whole it provides a standard for produce. I dread to think gow bad some farms would be without it.

We already have a standard. RT doesn't provide a standard, it provides an illusion.

Its also a private company serving its own market

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