- Location
- Carmarthenshire, West Wales
I saw sub clover in Australia, never heard of it before
yes it is pricey ! But, could end up cheap if it works, anyway, ordered a bit, enough for another trial plot !
we overseeded some poorer pp last aut, with balsana clover, variable remarks, but, now cut, quite a bit of clover seedlings germinating/growing, whether balsana, we will have to wait and see.
Is there enough information from the organic side to help?said to someone last week, if the same money, that has been spent, on research/development, relying on chemical fert and sprays, been spent on research/improvement, of the pre fert days, where would we be today ?
looking at our organic neighbours, they just seem to swap fert/spray for diesel, others seem to make hay, from buttercups, never been to impressed with organic, though they do have some better ideas.Is there enough information from the organic side to help?
I asked a question on Friday, at DaBwy2022 about the merits of either weed wiping with roundup or topping to kill rushes (we are organic so can't use a weedwiper anyway), one uses chemicals that are not good for soil life, the other burns through non renewable diesel which again for the planet is not good.looking at our organic neighbours, they just seem to swap fert/spray for diesel, others seem to make hay, from buttercups, never been to impressed with organic, though they do have some better ideas.
Sort of ment looking towards the variety they uselooking at our organic neighbours, they just seem to swap fert/spray for diesel, others seem to make hay, from buttercups, never been to impressed with organic, though they do have some better ideas.
never been 'sure' of organic farming, theory is right, but somehow l cannot relate perfect cabbages, with no insect/bug control. No doubt it can be done, but dedication must be good. I watch 2 neighbours, continually ploughing, either green manure in, or annual crops. And followed by a thin coating of slurry.
And yet, l can see, and do, the regen principles, of rebuilding soil fertility, and structure. Using non inversion tillage, and using best principle cropping. Rather think those principles, are more friendly to the environment, than some organic principles.
There again, my views may be well off the mark.
Prg and white clover here and this year I’ll hit 10 grazings even though we’re autumn calving
Trouble is with or these legumes it takes them 5/6 months to get growing ,which is no good if you want cows out in jan/feb . So then you’ve got the issue that a lot of legumes will only last 1/2 years so your always reseeding ( big cost to that) ,whereas prg /wc will do 10+ years without at problem
I would say by the end of the year I will have grown a 1/3 more dm which is huge
if I was reseeding every 4 years with a plough (and maybe a break crop) that could be organic but I am pretty sure judicious use of roundup and direct drilling would be better for the soil, but not allowed in organic systems.never been 'sure' of organic farming, theory is right, but somehow l cannot relate perfect cabbages, with no insect/bug control. No doubt it can be done, but dedication must be good. I watch 2 neighbours, continually ploughing, either green manure in, or annual crops. And followed by a thin coating of slurry.
And yet, l can see, and do, the regen principles, of rebuilding soil fertility, and structure. Using non inversion tillage, and using best principle cropping. Rather think those principles, are more friendly to the environment, than some organic principles.
There again, my views may be well off the mark.
some regen farmers say, we have plenty already in the soil, just a question of getting the soil biology right to liberate it with mycorrhizal fungi (not organic principles, there you can apply rock phosphate no derogation and sulphate of potash with a derogation).Where organic farming falls down is when you can't maintain your P and K indices. I know a big organic farm that had this issue years ago. You end up needing twice the area than if you farmed conventionally.
some regen farmers say, we have plenty already in the soil, just a question of getting the soil biology right to liberate it with mycorrhizal fungi (not organic principles, there you can apply rock phosphate no derogation and sulphate of potash with a derogation).
I would agree. Irrigation works as well.As long as it rains, there is little to beat a well managed PRG/White Clover ley imo. It is productive, persistent and flexible.
Most of those on here that are dabbling with/advocating other mixes are on farms that dry up in the summer though, which is when PRG is found lacking. Of course, it may be that we all face that problem soon enough if the climate change predictions are right…
I am yet to meet a "hippy" regen farmer! I have met far more "hippy" urban psychotherapists!Do you have be a hippy ‘regen’ farmer to believe that, or am I allowed to as well?
If you get the soil cycling better then you need less lime and less phosphate. Not so much Potash though, if you are constantly removing large quantities as cropping, but certainly less needed.
In the uk the definition of a drought is no rain and sunshine for a week or twoI would agree. Irrigation works as well.
Diploids in the PRG family are susceptible to heat and drought. However, they are all tolerate of heat and drought. It is difficult to kill a PRG from lack of water and heat along. It will go dormant. That is the nature of the line. Some lines are better than others in dealing with that in that they prolong the reproductive phase of the plant by as much as three weeks. Tetraploids are the other side of the genetic line of PRG which can tolerate heat and drought much better, extending the grazing season by months in some locations. Tetraploids store about 1/3 more water than Diploids. The result is less DM/bite from a Tetraploid.
After many years of using both in my paddocks I still do not know what the right combination of the two types for me is. Seems each year is a little different. But with 30% Tetraploids and 70% Diploids, along with red / white clovers and pasture herbs, I know that I can have high quality forage year round in my location.
we face south, and therefore get the full benefit of the sun, also exposed to any drying wind. And we are sandy soils, that very quickly dry out. We have no problem with prg going into a dormant state, the problem is, it doesn't wake up. We have areas, where prg has simply disappeared, within 2 yrs of sowing. And yet, get a good 'growing' year, prg/clover leys cannot really be beaten, its just that we don't seem to get those reliably, and the costs of continually reseeding, or overseeding, outweigh, the production in a good year. Been through the 'there can't be another year like this', bit, and there is. For us, 4 out of the last 5 years, have resulted in seriously short production.I would agree. Irrigation works as well.
Diploids in the PRG family are susceptible to heat and drought. However, they are all tolerate of heat and drought. It is difficult to kill a PRG from lack of water and heat along. It will go dormant. That is the nature of the line. Some lines are better than others in dealing with that in that they prolong the reproductive phase of the plant by as much as three weeks. Tetraploids are the other side of the genetic line of PRG which can tolerate heat and drought much better, extending the grazing season by months in some locations. Tetraploids store about 1/3 more water than Diploids. The result is less DM/bite from a Tetraploid.
After many years of using both in my paddocks I still do not know what the right combination of the two types for me is. Seems each year is a little different. But with 30% Tetraploids and 70% Diploids, along with red / white clovers and pasture herbs, I know that I can have high quality forage year round in my location.
I have a feeling climate change is partly driven by changes in water cycles, these are driven by land use, but the changed water cycles then affect the land/vegetation cover which feeds back to alter water cycles etc. I wonder if you are alluding to changes in the local water cycles? As a general rule I am pretty anti mass tree planting, but clouds are formed around bacteria plumes that rise from forested areas.we face south, and therefore get the full benefit of the sun, also exposed to any drying wind. And we are sandy soils, that very quickly dry out. We have no problem with prg going into a dormant state, the problem is, it doesn't wake up. We have areas, where prg has simply disappeared, within 2 yrs of sowing. And yet, get a good 'growing' year, prg/clover leys cannot really be beaten, its just that we don't seem to get those reliably, and the costs of continually reseeding, or overseeding, outweigh, the production in a good year. Been through the 'there can't be another year like this', bit, and there is. For us, 4 out of the last 5 years, have resulted in seriously short production.
Fully except the next few years, could be benign, its in case they are not, that we have been trying other methods, and crops. The results are pretty obvious, they either produce, or they don't. Currently, we have lots of prg, headed, at 6/7ins high, with other grasses, herbs and clovers, still providing a sensible 'bite'.
The 'bit' l don't quite understand, is we used to have no problem producing good grass, august, could be dry, but otherwise no problems. We had a spring/reservoir system, that would provide enough water, to keep 200+ dairy cows, supplied 9/10 months, of the year, it is virtually dry, the stream that runs through the farm, is now dry, more than running. So, being more proactive, than some, got off our asses, and actively moved to resolve the problem, with no preconceived ideas, and have taken a lot of ridicule by some. And to a point, its working, we are running out of grass now, and feeding hay, to slow rotation down, prg is headed, the other things are still growing slowly, herbs quite quickly. But, autumn calving cows, don't need so much, silage pits are nearly full, red clover leys to cut now, for 2nd cut, clover looks great, companion prg looks sick.
The bit I don’t get is why your feeding hay/silage but you’ve got fields shut up for silage .we face south, and therefore get the full benefit of the sun, also exposed to any drying wind. And we are sandy soils, that very quickly dry out. We have no problem with prg going into a dormant state, the problem is, it doesn't wake up. We have areas, where prg has simply disappeared, within 2 yrs of sowing. And yet, get a good 'growing' year, prg/clover leys cannot really be beaten, its just that we don't seem to get those reliably, and the costs of continually reseeding, or overseeding, outweigh, the production in a good year. Been through the 'there can't be another year like this', bit, and there is. For us, 4 out of the last 5 years, have resulted in seriously short production.
Fully except the next few years, could be benign, its in case they are not, that we have been trying other methods, and crops. The results are pretty obvious, they either produce, or they don't. Currently, we have lots of prg, headed, at 6/7ins high, with other grasses, herbs and clovers, still providing a sensible 'bite'.
The 'bit' l don't quite understand, is we used to have no problem producing good grass, august, could be dry, but otherwise no problems. We had a spring/reservoir system, that would provide enough water, to keep 200+ dairy cows, supplied 9/10 months, of the year, it is virtually dry, the stream that runs through the farm, is now dry, more than running. So, being more proactive, than some, got off our asses, and actively moved to resolve the problem, with no preconceived ideas, and have taken a lot of ridicule by some. And to a point, its working, we are running out of grass now, and feeding hay, to slow rotation down, prg is headed, the other things are still growing slowly, herbs quite quickly. But, autumn calving cows, don't need so much, silage pits are nearly full, red clover leys to cut now, for 2nd cut, clover looks great, companion prg looks sick.