Red Tractor lies again

SilliamWhale · Mar 30, 2023

kiwi pom said:
Wouldn't be a grain farmer, would you?
So for example, if Arla said all grain for cattle feed has to be RT if you supply us with milk then any mills supplying Arla would need their growers to be RT, that might kill imports, but you still need RT.
Chicken, Beef, Pork suppliers the same.
I find it interesting that the group of farmers with perhaps the easiest time with RT are the ones making the most fuss about it.

But I agree with you, scrap it and let the market decide.

Yes and there is no way my grain can ever be labelled, marketed or added a premium to because of Red Tractor. But a lack of RT can shut my business options down. Why do you say its the easiest time? - If you don't pay a fee you cannot access your home markets! - Thats not easy thats market capture by cynical means.

I'd go with that if Arla said all feedstock must be RT. The livestock buyer can be paid a premium and pass on that premium to the grain farmer.

SilliamWhale · Mar 30, 2023

kiwi pom said:
Yep it's complicated, I think RT was a good idea to give you access to all buyers, unlike say dairy where you supply a contract, but it's got a bit silly without actually being much of a standard at all, at least for grain farmers.
Time for it to go. Let the buyers decide what they want.

Anyway, Clive got what he wanted, started a thread with a dodgy tweet and picked up 5k views and nearly 200 replies, in 24 hours.
RT's good for business.

To be honest a lot of people have tried perfectly civil ways to communicate over 20 years.

What farmers don't like is having the pee taken out of them by retailers, processors and self appointed auditors. We will lose our independent farming industry soon

Andy Nash · Mar 30, 2023

SilliamWhale said:
We will lose our independent farming industry soon

This.

Andy Nash · Mar 30, 2023

kiwi pom said:
Anyway, Clive got what he wanted, started a thread with a dodgy tweet and picked up 5k views and nearly 200 replies, in 24 hours.
RT's good for business.

Really, do you think that’s what this is about?
I’m curious as to what your motivation is?
Since you’re not even on the same side of the planet as us, it seems strange that you don’t just stroll past the nfu rt stuff if it annoys you so much.

Bury the Trash · Mar 30, 2023

kiwi pom said:
RT's good for business.

its not good for his business its controlling the market he sells into.

andybk · Mar 30, 2023

thinking about RT this morning , ironically, the latest scandal will prob mean assured will be sought after so you might get a premium , as retailers will demand provenance if only to protect their business ,
The issue though is the RT brand was used to sell vast quatities of imported meat , , maybe they should be looking harder past the farm gate for their inspections and making sure the numbers tie up , Thats of course unless they are working for the processors , the fact there is no price advantage prob means they are and the brand is just used as a false confidence booster for the supermarkets ,thats why it has no real value , they know its B/S

7610 super q · Mar 30, 2023

For some of us small guys, the RT saga is an important issue.
Not so much, for the big chaps with new grain stores, and employing managers/ secretaries.
Not so much for the supermarkets who have a " Traceable " farm to fork assurance scheme......wait for it......paid for by the lowest link in the chain......farmers.
Not so much for the NFU, another nail in the coffin for small fry, and more chance to gobble up neighbours who throw in the towel.

I know conspiracy theories are mocked, but I'm convinced there's a concerted effort in the industry to wipe small farmers off the face of the earth. Red Tractor being one of the tools.

SilliamWhale · Mar 30, 2023

andybk said:
thinking about RT this morning , ironically, the latest scandal will prob mean assured will be sought after , as retailers will demand provenance if only to protect their business ,
The issue though is the RT brand was used to sell vast quatities of imported meat , , maybe they should be looking harder past the farm gate for their inspections , Thats of course unless they are working for the processors , the fact there is no price advantage prob means they are and the brand is just used as a false confidence booster for the supermarkets ,thats why it has no real value , they know its B/S

I don't think its proven RT was involved. Remember a lot of processing meat is usually not RT.

But despite that no one should be holding there heads in horror if RT meat and non RT meat is mixed, its already done in grain in plain sight

andybk · Mar 30, 2023

SilliamWhale said:
I don't think its proven RT was involved. Remember a lot of processing meat is usually not RT.

But despite that no one should be holding there heads in horror if RT meat and non RT meat is mixed, its already done in grain in plain sight

the article said they bought a small amount of uk meat , and rode on the back of that traceability , i assume you would have to be FA to sell pork direct to abbatoir as most uk pork would be direct ? , same as direct sales of beef and lamb ? hardly any goes through markets .

Quote :
"The business would buy a relatively small volume of British meat from a retailer-approved supplier, then use the traceability information from this delivery for all the products it made in that week – with the majority coming from elsewhere in the world."

SilliamWhale · Mar 30, 2023

andybk said:
the article said they bought a small amount of uk meat , and rode on the back of that traceability , i assume you would have to be FA to sell pork direct to abbatoir as most uk pork would be direct ? , same as direct sales of beef and lamb ? hardly any goes through markets .

"The business would buy a relatively small volume of British meat from a retailer-approved supplier, then use the traceability information from this delivery for all the products it made in that week – with the majority coming from elsewhere in the world."

I don't know. It would be interesting to know.

Although maybe all pigs need to be RT on intake I'm pretty sure all pork sold is not RT logo'd. You only get the RT logo if you pay for it on the packaging, so it may be that strictly speaking RT may not have any liability (apart from demonstrating that assurance means nothing anyway) if they're not selling it as RT logo pork. Another reason why RT delivers no extra value to the farmer

Theres loads of non RT logo British meat for sale

andybk · Mar 30, 2023

SilliamWhale said:
I don't know. It would be interesting to know.

Although maybe all pigs need to be RT on intake I'm pretty sure all pork sold is not RT logo'd. You only get the RT logo if you pay for it on the packaging, so it may be that strictly speaking RT may not have any liability (apart from demonstrating that assurance means nothing anyway) if they're not selling it as RT logo pork.

Theres loads of non RT logo British meat for sale

im not particulary balming RT for this apart from not policing the abusers , but its no different to how FA is used in the grain industry , if you as a buyer insist on being 100% FA to supply direct , whats the point if its mixed with any old product at the mill or abbatoir ? , all it does is add cost to the primary producer , as you point out they may not use the tractor so why bother in the first place ? Fine if they use it right thorugh and keep it seperate but how often does that happen ?

BrianV · Mar 30, 2023

Tell me with English farmers now losing their farm payments how the heck are English livestock farmers supposed to compete with Scottish ones not losing theirs & receiving this additional help, English farmers are being crucified by an uncaring government compared with the EU & other regions.

40m-suckler-beef-payments-start-to-roll-in-scotland

SilliamWhale · Mar 30, 2023

andybk said:
im not particulary balming RT for this apart from not policing the abusers , but its no different to how FA is used in the grain industry , if you as a buyer insist on being 100% FA to supply direct , whats the point ,if its mixed with any old product at the mill or abbatoir , all it does is add cost to the primary producer , as you point out they may not use the tractor so why bother in the first place ? Fine if they use it right thorugh and keep it seperate but how often does that happen ?

Oh don't get me wrong. I rail about the double standards of RT all the time and how they make up some rules only to suit a pre-ordained outcome (we've seen this with the latest NFU/RT urea thing) but as I say I'm not sure legally in this case unless the imported meat was labelled RT.

Then again this shows the need for separate packhouses for RT meat and for imported MT. Along with separate mills and processing facilities. Its what farms have to do

Steevo · Mar 30, 2023

SilliamWhale said:
Then again this shows the need for separate packhouses for RT meat and for imported MT. Along with separate mills and processing facilities. Its what farms have to do

Exactly this.

Same could be said for grain too.

Humble Village Farmer · Mar 30, 2023

andybk said:
thinking about RT this morning , ironically, the latest scandal will prob mean assured will be sought after , as retailers will demand provenance if only to protect their business ,
The issue though is the RT brand was used to sell vast qualtities of imported meat , , maybe they should be looking harder past the farm gate for their inspections , Thats of course unless they are working for the processors , the fact there is no price advantage prob means they are and the brand is just used as a false confidence booster for the supermarkets ,thats why it has no real value , they know its B/S

Farmers get all the blame for criminality, fraud and malpractice which mostly takes place outside the farm gate.

Clive · Mar 30, 2023

Fact is Red Tractor can't actually assure anything - their audit is no more than a self declaration

On farm .........

did you wash your grain bucket ?

Yes I did

Prove it ?

Here I have written down that I did

At processors ......

Is the meat UK origin ?

Yes it is

Prove it ?

Here is a receipt for SOME British meat I bought

Inspectors and audits only see what they are shown - My grain store is to standard .......... yet I may have 3 more old stores at different locations that are not ........ so let's not mention them yet I still get my stickers !

It's utterly flawed at all because of this, we may as well just tick a box on a grain passport or meat buyers receipt to say its produced to uk legal standards

Steevo · Mar 30, 2023

Clive said:
Fact is Red Tractor can't actually assure anything - their audit is no more than a self declaration

On farm .........

did you wash your grain bucket ?

Yes I did

Prove it ?

Here I have written down that I did

At processors ......

Is the meat UK origin ?

Yes it is

Prove it ?

Here is a receipt for SOME British meat I bought

Inspectors and audits only see what they are shown - My grain store is to standard .......... yet I may have 3 more old stores at different locations that are not ........ so let's not mention them yet I still get my stickers !

It's utterly flawed at all because of this, we may as well just tick a box on a grain passport or meat buyers receipt to say its produced to uk legal standards

Makes logical sense.

But.....RT is now verging into non-law areas:

HSE Policy - businesses of less than 5 employees don't require a written one. Red Tractor do.
Coated urea - UK law allows the spreading of unprotected urea whenever. Red Tractor only allow it 15th Jan - 15th March.

Some of these are areas that the UK Govt may not want to legislate at all for fear of poor optics. e.g. if they banned urea fertiliser in the UK, there may not be enough fert to go around. Thus UK govt actions are seen as the problem - hence why I doubt they would do it.

It's like the VI and the "Pesticide Tax" all over again.~

Instead they can get RT to do it for them (and bear the cost) and they don't need to legislate or take the flak for it either way.

Steevo · Mar 30, 2023

If only farmers could join together in some sort of national union for farmers to help fight back against such measures. Perhaps one that might (like the trade unions) ballot members and suggest they might like to take collective action like not purchasing coated ureas that might harm their own health and that of their soils.

"Farmers fight back against chemical additives added to their fertilisers...." might make a nice headline.

Clive · Mar 30, 2023

Steevo said:
Makes logical sense.

But.....RT is now verging into non-law areas:

HSE Policy - businesses of less than 5 employees don't require a written one. Red Tractor do.
Coated urea - UK law allows the spreading of unprotected urea whenever. Red Tractor only allow it 15th Jan - 15th March.

Some of these are areas that the UK Govt may not want to legislate at all for fear of poor optics. e.g. if they banned urea fertiliser in the UK, there may not be enough fert to go around. Thus UK govt actions are seen as the problem - hence why I doubt they would do it.

It's like the VI and the "Pesticide Tax" all over again.~

Instead they can get RT to do it for them (and bear the cost) and they don't need to legislate or take the flak for it either way.

Red Tractor have no way of knowing whats actually happening on farm or in factory whatsoever - it depends completely on a single day declaration that they charge to witness basically

If its a self declaration why do we need to PAY a company to witness that ? get your agronomist or wife to witness it ............ both of which have more visibility of what is ACTUALLY happening on farm

Clive · Mar 30, 2023

kiwi pom said:
Yep it's complicated, I think RT was a good idea to give you access to all buyers, unlike say dairy where you supply a contract, but it's got a bit silly without actually being much of a standard at all, at least for grain farmers.
Time for it to go. Let the buyers decide what they want.

Anyway, Clive got what he wanted, started a thread with a dodgy tweet and picked up 5k views and nearly 200 replies, in 24 hours.
RT's good for business.

TFF views make little difference to me / us as I've said before we sell less than 10% of the advertising we have available in page views so would only need to bump things up if traffic dropped by 90%

My shouting about RT / NFU actually does us harm commercially as it divides opinion, I post about the issues I genuinely care about, that's why I started TFF, simply so myself and others in this industry had a voice - I don't give a stuff about the commercials over that (much to the dismay of others involved running TFF quite often).

Red Tractor lies again

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