AHL2 - Winter Bird Food

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
From what you were suggesting of your 6+ species only 3 would provide an extended supply of small seeds....

don’t see why they wouldn’t as the summer species would seed after flowering as well, they would be growing May - october and the autumn mix would be growing july - may

in fact on my plan there is actually 3 months where alh2 is actually on 66% of our farm meaning DEFRA get 15 months of value for a 12 month payment !
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
I must be missing something here.
So plant AHL 2 WINTER BIRD FOOD option in July, to provide small seeds to birds during the winter months Nov,Dec,Jan,Feb, then terminate, redrill with a summer flower mix(?) All Im suggesting is that instead or redrilling with a summer flower mix (which by the way imo is a totally different option) I would plant spring linseed.
Heres my apparently non qualifying summer flowering spring linseed in June last year
View attachment 1147063
Is Linseed actually appealing to insects?? From my distant recollection, it was not.
 

Zippy768

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dorset/Wilts
don’t see why they wouldn’t as the summer species would seed after flowering as well, they would be growing May - october and the autumn mix would be growing july - may

in fact on my plan there is actually 3 months where alh2 is actually on 66% of our farm meaning DEFRA get 15 months of value for a 12 month payment !
I think you are on your own with the whole " 6 doesn't need to be sown together" thing.

So will you be starting the agreement in early autumn next year?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I think you are on your own with the whole " 6 doesn't need to be sown together" thing.

So will you be starting the agreement in early autumn next year?

i’m starting in february as soon as my 22 agreement ends

i really think my approach will likely achieve the aims better than drilling once and its the aims that matter, it doesn’t say all seed ls must be drilled at the same time so its ok
 

Agri Spec Solicitor

Member
Livestock Farmer
I am new to this SFI party. Sounds like my day job and the farm job are merging into one in a bad way😂
The meeting of objectives requirement is not new. Same in my profession. It settles down with experience and we all find out the hard way what works and what does not work! It’s not really better or worse just different to having a big rule book.
I have a question which I hope is still slightly on topic:
I understand that I could drill the seed for the winter bird seed and keep it going on the same piece of land for a few years, or rotate it every year.
When it’s time is up how is it disposed of?
Will it just plough in? Must it be sprayed off with Roundup? Does it need to be flailed to get rid of stalky material? Will we be plagued with volunteer weeds in the next crops which might torture us for years?
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
don’t see why they wouldn’t as the summer species would seed after flowering as well, they would be growing May - october and the autumn mix would be growing july - may

in fact on my plan there is actually 3 months where alh2 is actually on 66% of our farm meaning DEFRA get 15 months of value for a 12 month payment !
To be fair I think your plan is a pretty good one and with no penalties the worst that can happen is someone comes ands tells you next year you gotta plant 6 seeds in the Autumn mix. In my situation I think the cost and stress of having to do 2 drilling would outweigh the higher payment vs an Autumn AHL1.

My new focus is finding the cheapest but most beneficial AHL1 compliant seed mix or straights...
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
I am new to this SFI party. Sounds like my day job and the farm job are merging into one in a bad way😂
The meeting of objectives requirement is not new. Same in my profession. It settles down with experience and we all find out the hard way what works and what does not work! It’s not really better or worse just different to having a big rule book.
I have a question which I hope is still slightly on topic:
I understand that I could drill the seed for the winter bird seed and keep it going on the same piece of land for a few years, or rotate it every year.
When it’s time is up how is it disposed of?
Will it just plough in? Must it be sprayed off with Roundup? Does it need to be flailed to get rid of stalky material? Will we be plagued with volunteer weeds in the next crops which might torture us for years?

Will it just plough in? Maybe, or might need to disc or flail if or run livestock over it. How tall it remains standing will depends on the mix and if the winter is bitter cold, wet and heavy snow fall or mild and dry.

Must it be sprayed off with Roundup? It is not a requirement but you may wish to for grass weed control.

Does it need to be flailed to get rid of stalky material? See point A

Will we be plagued with volunteer weeds in the next crops which might torture us for years? Most probably and if so it will turn out to something that laughs in the face of most known herbicides....
 

Wiggy1

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Coventry
To be fair I think your plan is a pretty good one and with no penalties the worst that can happen is someone comes ands tells you next year you gotta plant 6 seeds in the Autumn mix. In my situation I think the cost and stress of having to do 2 drilling would outweigh the higher payment vs an Autumn AHL1.

My new focus is finding the cheapest but most beneficial AHL1 compliant seed mix or straights...
Aren’t you worried about grass weeds if you sow AHL1 in the autumn seeing as you presumably can’t destroy it until the end of the following summer? Or am I missing something?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
To be fair I think your plan is a pretty good one and with no penalties the worst that can happen is someone comes ands tells you next year you gotta plant 6 seeds in the Autumn mix. In my situation I think the cost and stress of having to do 2 drilling would outweigh the higher payment vs an Autumn AHL1.

My new focus is finding the cheapest but most beneficial AHL1 compliant seed mix or straights...

i might well plant more than 3 in autumn and spring anyway as i know that OM and biology is the best input i can buy for my soil anyway - i’ve been planting 8-12 way mixes for the last 16 years over winter with zero payment !

- i’m kind of making a point here that i don’t think the standard says you have to do all 6 in one drill
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Aren’t you worried about grass weeds if you sow AHL1 in the autumn seeing as you presumably can’t destroy it until the end of the following summer? Or am I missing something?

nothing says you cant destroy in spring - you would need to redrill to get the summer pollinator flowers aim covered off though
 

Zippy768

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dorset/Wilts
i’m starting in february as soon as my 22 agreement ends

i really think my approach will likely achieve the aims better than drilling once and its the aims that matter, it doesn’t say all seed ls must be drilled at the same time so its ok
Ok, so I am lost on your start date.
From Feb you will have 12 months to achieve the aim - summer pollinators and winter seed food.
You'll drill in July, flowers in August (still summer,), seeds in time for winter?
The 12 Month ends the following Feb?
If u have achieved the aims by then, why destroy and redrill in the spring after the 12 months end in February?
 

Mixedupfarmer

Member
Location
Norfolk
i might well plant more than 3 in autumn and spring anyway as i know that OM and biology is the best input i can buy for my soil anyway - i’ve been planting 8-12 way mixes for the last 16 years over winter with zero payment !

- i’m kind of making a point here that i don’t think the standard says you have to do all 6 in one drill
Why not plant 6 species in July, and then plant a Spring sown flowering cash crop ahead of wheat, surely that would be more profitable than a cover crop?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Ok, so I am lost on your start date.
From Feb you will have 12 months to achieve the aim - summer pollinators and winter seed food.
You'll drill in July, flowers in August (still summer,), seeds in time for winter?
The 12 Month ends the following Feb?
If u have achieved the aims by then, why destroy and redrill in the spring after the 12 months end in February?

feb start date means i start getting paid asap

it’s a 3 yr agreement and there will be x3 summers and x3 winters within that period to achieve the aims
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Why not plant 6 species in July, and then plant a Spring sown flowering cash crop ahead of wheat, surely that would be more profitable than a cover crop?

possibly yes - i think to justify this i really needs to be more than one species in spring but thats could be fine with say peas / mustard and phacelia for example and still harvested

a single spring species would only offer a small window for pollinators - but i guess nothing beats you can’t do that !
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
i think defra might enjoy seeing how we all interpret this standard differently and use it in different ways

as long as aims are satisfied why would they care how we do it
 

Wiggy1

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Coventry
nothing says you cant destroy in spring - you would need to redrill to get the summer pollinator flowers aim covered off though
Yes I’ve just about got my head around your plan with AHL2 but farmerm mentioned planting AHL1 pollen and nectar mix option in autumn which has the aim to produce ‘areas of flowering plants from late spring and during the summer months’. Seems to me you could both save a lot of bother by leaving stubble over winter (maybe spin on some stubble turnips) and then planting AHL1 with cheap seed like phacelia and radish etc in April/May. Round Up in September, no seed return from overwintered bird food or grass weeds and only have to drill once.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Yes I’ve just about got my head around your plan with AHL2 but farmerm mentioned planting AHL1 pollen and nectar mix option in autumn which has the aim to produce ‘areas of flowering plants from late spring and during the summer months’. Seems to me you could both save a lot of bother by leaving stubble over winter (maybe spin on some stubble turnips) and then planting AHL1 with cheap seed like phacelia and radish etc in April/May. Round Up in September, no seed return from overwintered bird food or grass weeds and only have to drill once.

i really want to retain a late spring glyphosate opportunity in my rotation as that keeps us free of grass weed

the cost of drilling twice is insignificant in comparison

seed return doesn’t bother me when we don’t cultivate it doesn’t matter
 

Mixedupfarmer

Member
Location
Norfolk
i think defra might enjoy seeing how we all interpret this standard differently and use it in different ways

as long as aims are satisfied why would they care how we do it
Because if we slot it in between winter barley and a spring flowering cash crop they may think they are paying too much, and it is not value for tax payers money? They may however see that the aims are met, benefits too pollinators and winter birds are worth the money, and be happy.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Because if we slot it in between winter barley and a spring flowering cash crop they may think they are paying too much, and it is not value for tax payers money? They may however see that the aims are met, benefits too pollinators and winter birds are worth the money, and be happy.

truth is different things will work better for different soils and geography

if your way north in the uk and harvest is late my plan wouldn’t work, if your on heavy clay the potatoes plan won’t work

i think it’s great that DEFRA seem to have realised that farmers know THEIR farms best. …… “ just achieve the aims, we don’t care how ! “
 

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