Defra now looking at capping SFI

farmerm · Feb 14, 2024

4course said:
I hope im wrong but I fear you may come to rue getting their consent as it may not be just your time you are wasting .cos whats to stop them withdrawing it later or worse .

I don't have any choice! Either I have to ask for NE consent or I can't have half my sfi agreement, even though the land is not in the SSSI and really it has fk all to do with NE. It is a geological SSSI. NE have zero grounds to deny or withdraw consent for what amount to agriculture actions on agricultural land outside the SSSI. RPA really have no right even asking me to ask NE, handbook states only I need to get NE consent for land in SSSI, but the parcels are not in the SSSI ffs.

Hindsight · Feb 14, 2024

farmerm said:
I don't have any choice! Either I have to ask for NE consent or I can't have half my sfi agreement, even though the land is not in the SSSI and really it has fk all to do with NE. It is a geological SSSI. NE have zero grounds to deny or withdraw consent for what amount to agriculture actions on agricultural land outside the SSSI. RPA really have no right even asking me to ask NE, handbook states only I need to get NE consent for land in SSSI, but the parcels are not in the SSSI ffs.

Its a real Catch 22. The two I have come across are similar. One is a Geological designation of part of a field (1 hectare out of 19ha) that bears no relation to practical Agriculture or any possible SFI Action. We offered to remove the area but no computer wouldn't allow. Fortunately that was the one where RPA common sense applied. My other is where a Fen Drain has a SSSI designation and four adjacent fields - two over a wide stone track! are trapped. But the conversations so far this week with RPA staff far less helpful. And holding up a 500 hectare whole farm application. I have advised client to email in withdraw application and we will start again without those four parcels. Problem now is if email in to withdraw a application that is in process being processed RPA staff couldn't say how long before that request would be actioned. Yep, cannot make up these things until stumble across bureaucracy. Hey ho.

DRC · Feb 14, 2024

Hindsight said:
Hi, I seem to recall you ceased farming 18 months ago - apologies if I am wrong person. did your land go to a new entrant (a true complete new entrnt) or an existing established business expanding? Just thinking about the bed blocking analogy. Cheers.

As I said, I don’t blame anyone for taking that route, just pointing out the whole political mindset isn’t encouraging new entrants, but giving older farmers/ landowners a retirement package .

farmerm · Feb 14, 2024

Hindsight said:
Its a real Catch 22. The two I have come across are similar. One is a Geological designation of part of a field (1 hectare out of 19ha) that bears no relation to practical Agriculture or any possible SFI Action. We offered to remove the area but no computer wouldn't allow. Fortunately that was the one where RPA common sense applied. My other is where a Fen Drain has a SSSI designation and four adjacent fields - two over a wide stone track! are trapped. But the conversations so far this week with RPA staff far less helpful. And holding up a 500 hectare whole farm application. I have advised client to email in withdraw application and we will start again without those four parcels. Problem now is if email in to withdraw a application that is in process being processed RPA staff couldn't say how long before that request would be actioned. Yep, cannot make up these things until stumble across bureaucracy. Hey ho.

The issue as I see it is the SSSI layer is from a different map version to that used to map the field parcels, it is slightly different in places and aligned about 2m west so the SSSI layer ends up overlapping into parcel polygons where it is not meant to be at all.

It isn't a new thing, thinking back I had this 10 years ago with a field in CSS. The RPA should be long aware the SSSI layer creates false overlaps and be able to apply some common sense!

Hindsight · Feb 14, 2024

farmerm said:
The issue as I see it is the SSSI layer is from a different map version to that used to map the field parcels, it is slightly different in places and aligned about 2m west so the SSSI layer ends up overlapping into parcel polygons where it is not meant to be at all. It isn't a new thing, thinking back I had this 10 years ago with a field in CSS. The RPA should be long aware the SSSI layer creates false overlaps and be able to apply some common sense!

View attachment 1164480

Could be that but also I recall in CSS applications some options were not allowed in land parcels adjacent to SSSI. I am not a environmental adviser but have completed a few CSS applications for agronomy clients and come across this a couple of times before, except the FER report made it clear there was a SSSI present, the HEFER doesn't. If it had I might have thought more! I am doing another SFI application as I type and this is one where I recall this adjacent SSSI issue from four years ago when certain options were excluded - seem to remember it was AB8, so we chose AB15. Both similar but presumably some DEFRA ecologist had a thought AB* might introduce some wild flowers adjacent - well that is what I thought but at times best not to ponder what goes through the mind of DEFRA stakeholder meetings and specialists!!

Clive · Feb 15, 2024

lloyd said:
The case would be an economic one .
There is a large area of grade 3 land area in England especially in the central area
which at first glance looks more profitable in sfi.
So we look for imports to replace production but how stable and reliable will
they be if there is a major weather event in one of the main global producing regions.
Of course it might be a good thing as we would be able to get a realistic price for our outputs.

they haven’t run out of money ( far from it !) and i reckon overall less will end up being claimed on sfi than bps …… it suits some but certainly not all

Still Farming · Feb 15, 2024

Welsh Consultation needs response asap:

Sustainable Farming Scheme | GOV.WALES

We want your views on the long-term programme to support the agricultural industry.

www.gov.wales

Bossfarmer · Feb 15, 2024

Clive said:
they haven’t run out of money ( far from it !) and i reckon overall less will end up being claimed on sfi than bps …… it suits some but certainly not all

im told the number of civil servants working on ag policy has gone up from 1500 to 7000, the money for this will no doubt be coming from the ag budget?

lloyd · Feb 15, 2024

Clive said:
they haven’t run out of money ( far from it !) and i reckon overall less will end up being claimed on sfi than bps …… it suits some but certainly not all

I think you mis understood my post, medium term these schemes
could increase the weekly shopping bill for Joe public .In the meantime
we will be taking full advantage of the system like most others.

serf · Feb 15, 2024

Public will soon turn when they find out ppl are being paid to grow weeds and their food bills go up even more ....

Clive · Feb 15, 2024

serf said:
Public will soon turn when they find out ppl are being paid to grow weeds and their food bills go up even more ....

they seemed ok with paying wealthy landowners for doing nothing ?

food prices will only go up if they go up globally, uk ex farm prices are almost irrelevant

Clive · Feb 15, 2024

lloyd said:
I think you mis understood my post, medium term these schemes
could increase the weekly shopping bill for Joe public .In the meantime
we will be taking full advantage of the system like most others.

why will they increase the weekly bill ? processors will just import more - imports are cheap

lloyd · Feb 15, 2024

Clive said:
why will they increase the weekly bill ? processors will just import more - imports are cheap

How do we know imports will be cheap next year or the year after or that there
won't be supply issues ?We don't it's only an assumption.
One big weather event or shipping disruption could easily change the balance.

Andy26 · Feb 15, 2024

lloyd said:
How do we know imports will be cheap next year or the year after or that there
won't be supply issues ?We don't it's only an assumption.
One big weather event or shipping disruption could easily change the balance.

That's the government of the days problem.

To be totally reliant on UK produced food would lead to higher food bills for the UK consumer, whilst that is great for ensuring a reliable and sustainable food source and good for UK farmers, it would mean less disposable income to spend on holidays etc.

Clive · Feb 15, 2024

lloyd said:
How do we know imports will be cheap next year or the year after or that there
won't be supply issues ?We don't it's only an assumption.
One big weather event or shipping disruption could easily change the balance.

uk entire wheat harvest is circa 13 million tonne. ……. the usda regular adjust their harvest estimates up or down by numbers more than that ! ……… and the USA isn’t even the biggest producer of wheat !

what the uk grows is almost irrelevant, prices are set by global markets, if import prices rise then our prices rise as well

food security / cheap food is a flawed argument, there are much better reasons to argue that the uk should continue to encourage food production

DrWazzock · Feb 15, 2024

DRC said:
I don’t blame you at all for doing it, but it’s stagnating the industry and is a form of bed blocking.
Should be like in France where you can’t claim subs when you hit pensionable age maybe ?

I agree entirely. SFI will shut out new entrants and stifle innovation as it will keep tired old duffers going ad infinitum. A reduction in subs would have actually refreshed the industry and made it more efficient. Carbon and BNG markets also work without subs. The inflationary land price bubble could have been slowly deflated opening the industries to workers rather than movers of capital.
But this is what we get with a government and civil service who see success as ever increasing amounts of taxation and public spending, which is IMO a downward spiral to a bankrupt country.

Clive · Feb 15, 2024

Andy26 said:
That's the government of the days problem.

To be totally reliant on UK produced food would lead to higher food bills for the UK consumer, whilst that is great for ensuring a reliable and sustainable food source and good for UK farmers, it would mean less disposable income to spend on holidays etc.

we already import nr 50% of the nations food. - we ARE dependent on imports now and have been for quite some time

importing keeps food cheap and is the easy way for governments to meet environmental commitments

all very sad / wrong imo but those are the facts !

serf · Feb 15, 2024

Clive said:
importing keeps food cheap and is the easy way for governments to meet environmental commitments

You mean green washing,

just shows how floored all this green nonsense is ,
aslong as it's green when you turn the key or it's " green " in this country so you can tell the box ticking clipboard crew we " met our target"
all the " dirty stuff" can be done abroad out of our eye line ...

lloyd · Feb 15, 2024

Andy26 said:
That's the government of the days problem.

To be totally reliant on UK produced food would lead to higher food bills for the UK consumer, whilst that is great for ensuring a reliable and sustainable food source and good for UK farmers, it would mean less disposable income to spend on holidays etc.

If domestic production is greatly reduced which is a real
possibility then the consumer would be more at the mercy of unforseen events abroad which could restrict supply and inflate prices.At the moment there has been a balance which has kept food relatively cheap.

Andy26 · Feb 15, 2024

lloyd said:
If domestic production is greatly reduced which is a real
possibility then the consumer would be more at the mercy of unforseen events abroad which could restrict supply and inflate prices.At the moment there has been a balance which has kept food relatively cheap.

Totally agree, but no Western government seems bothered about such things.

Defra now looking at capping SFI

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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