The ultimate wet season drill ?

Clive · Jun 15, 2014

Hampton said:
Would it not be dependent on plough depth?
Also, would it not add a bit more organic matter to the 6-20cm zone? I don't want to get in a plough vs direct argument, I am just interested, the plants will root loser than the direct drill, so wouldn't it help to have a bit of OM down there?

Any soil structure reorganisation beyond more that about 2" is going to destroy what the zero- disturbance created, all those vertical routes created by worms and cracking or roots etc will be destroyed and need to start over

There is plenty OM at depth taken there by worms and old roots, the best place for it however is the surface and not mixed with soil in the root zone, that's where you want humus that was om once upon a time and that's down to the soils biology to create which are not helped by tillage at all really

Going off topic a bit now !

Hampton · Jun 15, 2014

Clive said:
Any soil structure reorganisation beyond more that about 2" is going to destroy what the zero- disturbance created, all those vertical routes created by worms and cracking or roots etc will be destroyed and need to start over

There is plenty OM at depth taken there by worms and old roots, the best place for it however is the surface and not mixed with soil in the root zone, that's where you want humus that was om once upon a time and that's down to the soils biology to create which are not helped by tillage at all really

Going off topic a bit now !

Ok, understand what you are saying, don't totally agree with it, but that's your perogative.

Feldspar · Jun 15, 2014

Clive said:
100% set back to square one - it would be a total reset of soil structure

Evidence? I've yet to see anyone on here present anything to support this assertion. Note that your claim is distinct from the claim that ploughing causes some loss of features which are variously thought to be attributes of desirable soil structure.

Clive · Jun 15, 2014

Feldspar said:
Evidence? I've yet to see anyone on here present anything to support this assertion. Note that your claim is distinct from the claim that ploughing causes some loss of features which are variously thought to be attributes of desirable soil structure.

Purely circumstantial I'm afraid, if I've seen it with my eyes then I tend to believe it. My agronomist, father and tractor drivers would all concur. Improvements in my soils and therefore crops in just 2 years are remarkable, the idea of potentially going back to where I was doesn't appeal

Every farmer has a long term un disturbed soil trial, go dig a soil pit in the middle of your lawn and see if the soil is unhealthy, poorly drained or unable to sustain plant growth

The science is yet to catch up but is clearly incredibly complex and beyond current quantification or understanding

Anyway what's the best wet weather drill ? Lol

Knockie · Jun 15, 2014

Don't tell me you've not seen a plough working

I sort of think that any soil structure that might be there would be pretty much destroyed if nearly totally inverted.
Cheers.
SD.

Rob Holmes · Jun 15, 2014

Clive said:
100% set back to square one - it would be a total reset of soil structure

Agreed, wish we never panicked and got the plough out 2 years ago

Feldspar · Jun 15, 2014

Knockie said:
Don't tell me you've not seen a plough working I sort of think that any soil structure that might be there would be pretty much destroyed if nearly totally inverted.
Cheers.
SD.

I am not questioning the claim that ploughing causes some loss of soil structure if used after some years of conservation tillage / no-till etc. However, I am questioning the claim that it causes a complete loss of any changes that have occurred and a total reset. Elmsted's argument about rotational ploughing relies on the distinction between these two claims. He would argue, I think, that the first claim may be true, but would resist the claim that the second is also true.

Feldspar · Jun 15, 2014

Clive said:
Anyway what's the best wet weather drill ? Lol

Answer: one that doesn't work in wet weather; that way it acts as an automatic safety.

ETA: I'm looking forward to reading more from this guy:

http://www.nuffieldscholar.org/scholars/russ-mckenzie/

BSH · Jun 15, 2014

I would think that something like a Bomford Dyna drive or some other vertical tillage type machine in conjunction with broadcasting would be the best wet weather solution? I did see some pics of second hand dynadrives rigged up as drills but cant refind the photo now. Not sure if they were set up for cover cropping or if the users did cereals. They were on the continent.

Wheatland · Jun 15, 2014

Alistair Nelson · Jun 15, 2014

Clive

I would suggest that 3m tined Bootimate drill you bought off me many years ago is as good as anything in the wet as long as you can travel they will just about run in anything, have more bother with them blocking in dry fuzzy going.

Alistair

Clive · Jun 15, 2014

Alistair Nelson said:
Clive

I would suggest that 3m tined Bootimate drill you bought off me many years ago is as good as anything in the wet as long as you can travel they will just about run in anything, have more bother with them blocking in dry fuzzy going.

Alistair

I wondered if you might say that, it was a very good wet drill iirc but would it have worked direct to stubble ?

A front hopper version to spread weight on a tractor with large wheel equipment would be good

Alistair Nelson · Jun 15, 2014

Clive said:
I wondered if you might say that, it was a very good wet drill iirc but would it have worked direct to stubble ?

A front hopper version to spread weight on a tractor with large wheel equipment would be good

You mean a bit like this one!! This is our own on the farm at home when it was new and we still run it. Its 4.8m with a front hopper. It will work like the KV we have seen on here as long as the stubble is short and the chopped straw was well pushed into the stubble as you can put the front rigid tines in to make abit of tilth, but it would work best on some tined cultivating.

Alistair

Clive · Jun 15, 2014

Alistair Nelson said:
View attachment 51878

You mean a bit like this one!! This is our own on the farm at home when it was new and we still run it. Its 4.8m with a front hopper. It will work like the KV we have seen on here as long as the stubble is short and the chopped straw was well pushed into the stubble as you can put the front rigid tines in to make abit of tilth, but it would work best on some tined cultivating.

Alistair

Bet the gutlers soon clag up though if really wet ? How did that cope in 2012 ?

Andrew K · Jun 15, 2014

I would think the Dale Eco3 mounted would be a good wet weather mounted direct drill myself?

Clive · Jun 15, 2014

Andrew K said:
I would think the Dale Eco3 mounted would be a good wet weather mounted direct drill myself?

Mounted maybe but from experience last year a 750a will go wetter than a trailed eco drill

Alistair Nelson · Jun 15, 2014

Clive said:
Bet the gutlers soon clag up though if really wet ? How did that cope in 2012 ?

To be fair they are great in the wet, the only time they cause bother is one particular field on the farm with flints just the correct size to get in-between the rings when it is very dry and loose. This causes the roller to stall and then blocks the drill, resulting in a digging session.

As you know the only other issue with the gutters is they are so damned expensive, but as a dealer in Shrewsbury said to me about them, 'they are the solution to packer roller problems and if you think they are too exp your not having enough trouble!'

Alistair

Feldspar · Jun 15, 2014

I'll answer properly. The best wet weather drill is our Vicon drill which sadly is no longer made. We bought several which we've used for parts since they stopped producing them. 8m wide in its current format, super light. Have been able to drill in silly wet conditions and it carries on. Couldn't think of better.

Clive · Jun 15, 2014

Alistair Nelson said:
To be fair they are great in the wet, the only time they cause bother is one particular field on the farm with flints just the correct size to get in-between the rings when it is very dry and loose. This causes the roller to stall and then blocks the drill, resulting in a digging session.

As you know the only other issue with the gutters is they are so damned expensive, but as a dealer in Shrewsbury said to me about them, 'they are the solution to packer roller problems and if you think they are too exp your not having enough trouble!'

Alistair

We have a shakerator with gutler packer, not something I've ever used in the wet though to know how they perform as wet shakerating really would be pointless

warksfarmer · Jun 16, 2014

If 2012 taught us anything, its not to give up on a wheat plant. After the wettest spring and harvest for a 100 years we then mauled wheat into crappy seedbeds which then went on to achieve some nearly record yields the following harvest 2013. Obviously the weather played the main part in the yields but it showed that the establishment isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things.

The ultimate wet season drill ?

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