Innovis Ram Sale

neilo · Aug 14, 2018

Mutch said:
We are breeding Belclares(composites) now and they have been found to have variants of the genes BMP15, BMPR1B and GDF9, how these genes all interact I'm not finding much info on.
How advantage would it be spending the money identifying whose got what? Or is just sound phenotype recording the best bet. Or maybe both? (thinking outloud!)

You would likely save a couple of generations by picking the genes you want from a test, rather than waiting until progeny of various rams come through to the point of being able to record prolificacy.

I thought you were breeding NZ Suffolk’s? :scratchhead:

Or are the Belclares in addition?

MJT · Aug 14, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
That's missing the point but any way.....

They could have saved themselves the bother and got some rough fell mules!....

I can assure you that mules don’t come close to being in the same league as aberdales for efficiency and prolifacy on rough grazing on an upland Farm.

Mutch · Aug 14, 2018

neilo said:
You would likely save a couple of generations by picking the genes you want from a test, rather than waiting until progeny of various rams come through to the point of being able to record prolificacy.

I thought you were breeding NZ Suffolk’s? Or are the Belclares in addition?

They're my maternal line - like to provide a choice to my customers! And Irelands closer than NZ!

TALDLONKTUP2 · Aug 14, 2018

MJT said:
I can assure you that mules don’t come close to being in the same league as aberdales for efficiency and prolifacy on rough grazing on an upland Farm.

How many days to slaughter?

unlacedgecko · Aug 14, 2018

NZDan said:
Which is the great thing about major genes and the ability to test for them relatively cheaply, a life times gains can now be made in just a few years.
I believe the Chinese have gene edited some sheep to be homozygous GDF9 and GDF8 and a short tail gene and are multiplying them rapidly.
It is likely that more single genes with major effects on many productive traits will be discovered in the near future.

https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/wo...er2014-sheepfarmerarticle29102014180346_1.pdf

Mutch · Aug 14, 2018

ryanmcmac45 said:
How are you finding the beclares in terms off prolifacy?
They're quite popular this side of the water @Mutch

In terms of prolificacy they haven't disappointed pure they are always scanning over 200% crossing is a little harder to tell as I had a fairly prolific NZ Romney line anyway scanning 190%
I have been impressed how robust they have been in a s**t year. So more than happy to continue expanding and hopefully getting some rams out and about in the UK mainland in time.

MJT · Aug 14, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
How many days to slaughter?

I would say there’s maybe a week in it with the early lambers just because the mules give the lambs a bit more frame.
But then more lambs out of aberdale , and Wouldn’t worry about it too much , as when run on the same system as the aberdales the mule ewes would have died over the winter so wouldn’t have to worry about Days to slaughter .

TALDLONKTUP2 · Aug 14, 2018

MJT said:
I would say there’s maybe a week in it with the early lambers just because the mules give the lambs a bit more frame.
But then more lambs out of aberdale , and Wouldn’t worry about it too much , as when run on the same system as the aberdales the mule ewes would have died over the winter so wouldn’t have to worry about Days to slaughter .

I've run many breeds and crosses together to the same tups wintered outside all together in an upland environment and i've never seen any difference overall in supposed "efficiency" between any breeds. I think the whole idea is a complete nonsense and marketing bulls**t. You put more in you get more out....whether that's fat on the back or more milk or more lambs. But you won't get more out just by changing breeds, however 'magic' the marketing man told you it was.

There maybe a mild affect of different wool types and covering but even then that maybe more to do with the age of the ewe where older ewe tend to carry less fleece.

glensman · Aug 14, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
I've run many breeds and crosses together to the same tups wintered outside all together in an upland environment and i've never seen any difference overall in supposed "efficiency" between any breeds. I think the whole idea is a complete nonsense and marketing bullpoo. You put more in you get more out....whether that's fat on the back or more milk or more lambs. But you won't get more out just by changing breeds, however 'magic' the marketing man told you it was.

There maybe a mild affect of different wool types and covering but even then that maybe more to do with the age of the ewe where older ewe tend to carry less fleece.

which ewe type have you found leaves you the most take home profit most consistently over the years?

MJT · Aug 14, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
I've run many breeds and crosses together to the same tups wintered outside all together in an upland environment and i've never seen any difference overall in supposed "efficiency" between any breeds. I think the whole idea is a complete nonsense and marketing bullpoo. You put more in you get more out....whether that's fat on the back or more milk or more lambs. But you won't get more out just by changing breeds, however 'magic' the marketing man told you it was.

There maybe a mild affect of different wool types and covering but even then that maybe more to do with the age of the ewe where older ewe tend to carry less fleece.

The more you put in the more you get out is rubbish . On our ground Side by side aberdales and mules , summer on grass and wintered on root crops ......mules were flushed, yet had lower scanning percentage , mules were giving better grass , yet had lower BCS , and mules lasted a year less. I would class that as putting more in and getting a hell of a lot less out. That’s why out of the 1000 mules we used to run we now have 4 left . Everything else from that flock has been replaced by Aberdales.

I do agree not to believe the rubbish that these breeding companies spout, as I’ve even had enough of innovis myself .... take it all with a bag of salt and do what suits your farm best .

TALDLONKTUP2 · Aug 14, 2018

glensman said:
which ewe type have you found leaves you the most take home profit most consistently over the years?

Mules hands down, simply because the vast majority of any ewe's costs are fixed costs, so the bit of extra cost needed to get the extra output of the mule is a tiny proportion of the overall cost of keeping the ewe (any ewe).

Therefore, it is that small amount of extra variable cost input that drives all the output where the profit is. If you imagine your net profit is say £20 per ewe of your gross output, you will find it's that extra £3 of variable cost input (extra feed around lambing for example) that is creating all of the £20 profit. Assuming that each system is rational and well run of course on its own terms.

And in actual fact, you find a ewe in a supposed low input system may well actually cost MORE to keep than a ewe in a supposed high input system simply because the lower stocking rates usual of such systems increasing the fixed costs per ewe, so you end up with less out put and higher costs....But of course if the real income is actually coming from subsidies, that doesn't matter, and everyone turns a blind eye, and keeps a few low output ewes for appearances sake and takes it easy (Which is actually the rational thing to do on that situation) and is what happened after 2005 when we got the area payment system and all the white faces and New Zealand imports starting appearing

Global ovine · Aug 14, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
You've previously said that the inheritability of lambing percentage is so low that it would take a "lifetime to change it by a tiny amount" ........

The heritability of Number of Lambs Born is low, but gain can be quite rapid once a period of performance recording history identifies the elite sheep for this trait. Selection differential is the key (finding the outliers) and using shorter generation intervals (extensive use of ram lambs).

I have made such comments twice on TFF in regards to selecting against triplet births. Here the heritability is extremely low and the repeatability of litter size erratic making such selection so slow that it would take a lifetime for a breeder to achieve a 14% reduction in tripleting incidence even if he/she selected on nothing else.
An example:
500 ewes scanning 210% (at this scan % at least 15% of the flock will have triplets = 75 triplet bearing)
Reduction of tripleting ewes by 14% = 64 ewes now having triplets after a lifetime of single trait selection.

I think a lot more gain could be made by selecting on more commercially valuable traits depending on the flock's current capability and the environmental constraints. Universally this means growth the first and probably easiest trait.

TALDLONKTUP2 · Aug 14, 2018

Global ovine said:
The heritability of Number of Lambs Born is low, but gain can be quite rapid once a period of performance recording history identifies the elite sheep for this trait. Selection differential is the key (finding the outliers) and using shorter generation intervals (extensive use of ram lambs).

I have made such comments twice on TFF in regards to selecting against triplet births. Here the heritability is extremely low and the repeatability of litter size erratic making such selection so slow that it would take a lifetime for a breeder to achieve a 14% reduction in tripleting incidence even if he/she selected on nothing else.
An example:
500 ewes scanning 210% (at this scan % at least 15% of the flock will have triplets = 75 triplet bearing)
Reduction of tripleting ewes by 14% = 64 ewes now having triplets after a lifetime of single trait selection.

I think a lot more gain could be made by selecting on more commercially valuable traits depending on the flock's current capability and the environmental constraints. Universally this means growth the first and probably easiest trait.

I see nothing wrong with 210% and 15% triplets. For a start, you need a few 'extras' to make up for the casualties, and also, your example would mean only 25 ewes with singles needing adopting on (plus casualties of course) should it be appropriate. Over even a condensed three week lambing period that shouldn't be an issue for anyone.

As I've said before, I expect any ewe likely to have triplets to be comfortably able to rear triplets (ie. 2 shear and above) and hence one of the reasoning for advocating a more robust 70/75kg ewe, that's the prerequisite, and reckon that the in an optimal system the aim should probably be to scan around 220% excluding hogs.

texelburger · Aug 14, 2018

They tell me that it won't be long until the Aberhuman composite will be commercially available.The females will be compact,neat with a good backend and well formed udders.They will have been specifically bred to ovulate frequently and cycle all year round.They will,also, be equally at home in the kitchen as the bedroom and will rarely bleat prefering to,without a fuss,get on with the job they were bred to do.They will give birth without any assistance whatsoever and offspring will be ready for market in approximately 4 weeks.
The Rams will be very virile and able to breed frequently and will be able to cover 500 ewes per cycle .Once the breeding season is over they will thrive on very little concentrate except for a little daily ration of steak/fish and chips.The only negative to this breed is the Rams have been known to break out for liquid refreshments but Innovis are working hard to remove this trait.
The prediction is that this breed will be commercially available in 8 years time once extensive testing of the female line is completed.

Global ovine · Aug 14, 2018

Mutch said:
We are breeding Belclares(composites) now and they have been found to have variants of the genes BMP15, BMPR1B and GDF9, how these genes all interact I'm not finding much info on.
How advantage would it be spending the money identifying whose got what? Or is just sound phenotype recording the best bet. Or maybe both? (thinking outloud!)

I had the pleasure of once working with George Davis (NZ scientist credited with discovering the mode of inheritance and effect of most of the known high fecundity genes......a contemporary of Ireland's Sheamus Hanrahan who developed the Belclare at Athenry) who was adamant that the more the breeders selected for improvements of any phenotype, the sooner those sheep carrying something different genetically became apparent and captured into that population. Prior to recorded selection, such carriers would have just been lost in the crowd.

@Mutch; my suggestion is that you keep on improving the genotypes where you see an economic advantage in improvement, knowing that you will be capturing some of these major genes. Don't get carried away with gene testing as the only pay back may be justifying to ram buyers what is driving the additional performance. Your greatest threat is narrowing overall genetic diversity in your flock by concentrating too much on one line. Good recording will identify the elite sheep and provide a gauge of trait improvement across the generations. If you do find a novel individual, put some semen in the can, in case that line becomes too scarce down the years.

Are major genes additive or cancel each other out?:
They each have their own mode of inheritance, so various combos can do different things. George Davis had some sheep at Woodlands Res. Stn. with several different fecundity genes that produced huge numbers of eggs shed each cycle. Nobody wants sheep to breed like guinea pigs.
If different major genes have a similar effect, eg. one copy of Myomax muscling gene plus one copy of the myostatin equivalent found in Charollais results in a similar effect as 2 copies of Myomax. Some major genes will dominate the effect as they have much more influence, eg. Booroola (+1.0 lamb/litter) vs GDF9 (+0.14).

Global ovine · Aug 14, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
I see nothing wrong with 210% and 15% triplets. For a start, you need a few 'extras' to make up for the casualties, and also, your example would mean only 25 ewes with singles needing adopting on (plus casualties of course) should it be appropriate. Over even a condensed three week lambing period that shouldn't be an issue for anyone.

As I've said before, I expect any ewe likely to have triplets to be comfortably able to rear triplets (ie. 2 shear and above) and hence one of the reasoning for advocating a more robust 70/75kg ewe, that's the prerequisite, and reckon that the in an optimal system the aim should probably be to scan around 220% excluding hogs.

I also had no problem with the figures I quoted above, as I could manage 2000 fully recorded ewes outside in the developed hill country environment in which I farmed.
God help any high country farmer with those levels.
However my discussion wasn't about what you or I can manage, but the impracticability of trying to reduce tripleting by selection. If farmers do wish to reduce the incidence of triplet bearing ewes, they can easily reduce the body weights prior to mating, as flock ovulation is highly dependent upon body weight except for those individuals carrying these major genes for litter size.

Paul E · Aug 15, 2018

texelburger said:
They tell me that it won't be long until the Aberhuman composite will be commercially available.The females will be compact,neat with a good backend and well formed udders.They will have been specifically bred to ovulate frequently and cycle all year round.They will,also, be equally at home in the kitchen as the bedroom and will rarely bleat prefering to,without a fuss,get on with the job they were bred to do.They will give birth without any assistance whatsoever and offspring will be ready for market in approximately 4 weeks.
The Rams will be very virile and able to breed frequently and will be able to cover 500 ewes per cycle .Once the breeding season is over they will thrive on very little concentrate except for a little daily ration of steak/fish and chips.The only negative to this breed is the Rams have been known to break out for liquid refreshments but Innovis are working hard to remove this trait.
The prediction is that this breed will be commercially available in 8 years time once extensive testing of the female line is completed.

Many of the above traits can be found on the Jeremy Kyle show!

neilo · Aug 15, 2018

texelburger said:
They tell me that it won't be long until the Aberhuman composite will be commercially available.The females will be compact,neat with a good backend and well formed udders.They will have been specifically bred to ovulate frequently and cycle all year round.They will,also, be equally at home in the kitchen as the bedroom and will rarely bleat prefering to,without a fuss,get on with the job they were bred to do.They will give birth without any assistance whatsoever and offspring will be ready for market in approximately 4 weeks.
The Rams will be very virile and able to breed frequently and will be able to cover 500 ewes per cycle .Once the breeding season is over they will thrive on very little concentrate except for a little daily ration of steak/fish and chips.The only negative to this breed is the Rams have been known to break out for liquid refreshments but Innovis are working hard to remove this trait.
The prediction is that this breed will be commercially available in 8 years time once extensive testing of the female line is completed.

Now if only they could supply a model that didn’t ovulate frequently and cycle all year round.

Will they be selling through their sales, or will their be an option to lease, allowing replacement with a fresh one each year?

NZDan · Aug 15, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
That's missing the point but any way.....

They could have saved themselves the bother and got some rough fell mules!....

The heritability of traits affected by major genes is high, so by selecting for single genes with large effects big steps can be made in traits that would other wise take a long time to change.
What advantage would the Roughfell mules have?
The reason the Chinese choose Gene editing was that they had a common locally adapted breed, that just needed a small upwards boost to lambing % and to carcuss shape. It saved the hassle of creating a whole lot of cross bred sheep that were not loacally adapted.

Top Tip. · Aug 15, 2018

NZDan said:
The heritability of traits affected by major genes is high, so by selecting for single genes with large effects big steps can be made in traits that would other wise take a long time to change.
What advantage would the Roughfell mules have?
The reason the Chinese choose Gene editing was that they had a common locally adapted breed, that just needed a small upwards boost to lambing % and to carcuss shape. It saved the hassle of creating a whole lot of cross bred sheep that were not loacally adapted.

This I do like,I have read through this thread and I have been thinking why do people over complicate something that is really very simple , all these breeds and crosses trying to outdo each other,when imho all you have to do is farm them well and most breeds will be profitable,which at the end of the day is what counts.

Innovis Ram Sale

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