Brexit is destroying Britain

Mek said:

You have not given my full quote. The hypocrisy was not that he used the freedom of movement within the EU to farm but that he used the freedom of movement to farm and then supports removing that same freedom of movement for others.

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Old McDonald said:

All these folks crying “Hypocrisy” about me moving from the UK to Portugal must be about ready to burst their boiler as the saying goes when I tell them I moved from another country into the EU in 1992. The matter of FoM did not enter my head when deciding to move to Portugal. We chose it because it is safe, extremely cheap to live; just about the only country that has not been at war with the UK (perhaps only England?), and we like Port.

Of course I have lots of spare time, I am retired. If you did not wrongly assume so much you would receive much shorter replies.

What a load of rubbish that following generations cannot move into the EU from the UK. The idea of FofM formed no part of my decision to vote out in both referendums. I have already told you that people are moving now. Unless the EU unilaterally decides to ban UK citizens from moving to the EU it will continue.

I did not state I had the money to live anywhere I want. Again you assume. We could not afford to live in Australia for instance otherwise we might have gone there instead of Portugal. We needed to cut back on our excessive workload on the Black Isle (literally 100+ hours each every week) and move to somewhere that needed less input of time. We had to provide as much of our own requirements as possible due to lack of income. Too old to go behind a desk yet again. That meant farming somewhere as it is the only way I can provide much for ourselves. I fully understand a lot more than you give me credit for when it comes to reading legislation, regulations and documents. It was part of my employment for more years than I wanted. I do understand that FoM allows people with almost nothing to move to another country. I knew several who were living in poverty in Portugal on a tiny piece of ground (only a few hundred Euros to buy such land) and had bought with the idea they would be self sufficient. They live in tents, caravans or camper vans and often have children. They are not all Brits. I am aware of, but never met, one British family, about 5 miles from me, who were reduced to foraging for food and all ended up in intensive care, apparently from eating poisonous fungus. That is the downside of FoM. Poor people end up somewhere where they have no family to help out in emergencies. Human nature means they will not beg for help in the neighbourhood so nobody knows how much they need assistance. Somebody able to buy next week’s groceries does not have that problem.

Is it really so much harder to move to the EU? Your admission that it is possible, even if harder is somewhat different to saying movement is denied, which if not explicitly stated, was implied in your earlier post, and others picked up and repeated similar.

Merely to get a Portuguese driving licence, and well before Cameron had even thought of a referendum, I had to get a residence permit. That was not straightforward. I have always been a peasant farmer – someone who farms with the purpose of providing subsistence for himself and dependants. I have never had spare cash. Everything I had was in the property, machinery and stock. I had to give details of all my assets; bank statements for some time, I forget how long; income and projected future income and prove I was entitled to live in the house I occupied. So, not unlike the requirements you say are needed in order to farm in France. It appears more difficult to move to France than some other places. Perhaps that is a hidden policy by the French. Furthermore I had to register with a medical practice before applying for my driving licence. To register I also had to prove my right to occupy my house.

@wanton dwarf take notice of this – it is supporting part of what you have already posted about restrictions, but only part. I did not use swimming pools, but I was told it was necessary to obtain some sort of permit for that too. Hearsay, but I believe it.

We thought we might as well get a residence permit for my wife too. The person interviewing us declined it because my wife has a pittance of an OAP as her sole income and it was not sufficient to grant her a permit. Eventually we managed to persuade the powers that be that through our peasant lifestyle and my pensions there was sufficient to support us both – but it took time.

You assume I am sheltered from the financial pressures of modern life. Wrong yet again. We eat well and heat our home as necessary, but until I am able to provide more food it costs us more to live than we have coming in. I do have a 10 year old car, but it is just about essential. You assume I am sheltered from the “every man for himself attitude” in the UK. If it exists throughout the UK, why would Orkney be different?

I do not personally know any ex-pats who have financial ties to the UK. Some on here do, but how many of them have indicated they intend to return to the UK permanently? It is obvious from their posts they do not, yet you assume that most ex-pats, twice you have said most, do have financial ties to the UK and you assume they want to return to the UK to live. You assume they do not hate the UK and want it to thrive and prosper. How many do you know (anywhere in the world) that fit your assumptions? I know more than a few that are the opposite to what you assume. I agree those who keep their British nationality have opinions and rights, but some become citizens of their adoptive country. Again I know some (all in Australia) who became Australian citizens. My own brother was one, although admittedly they were still recognised as also British by the UK.

I did not state that I returned to the UK for health reasons, and had to explain to you what I did say about health and living in softer climes, but you missed that. If things become too difficult here from a financial perspective we might move somewhere softer again.

As I have already told you, you did not vote to join the Common Market. Nobody did. Ted Heath took us into the then EC and Harold Wilson gave us the option to remain or get out. You may well have voted to Remain in 1975. You were going to get closer political ties for its members whether you liked it or not because that was the main aim - as I posted earlier about the Treaty of Rome and that is when you decided to start posting your wrong assumptions, responding to me about a post I had made to somebody else. You did not have to direct a post to me, but chose to do so. Whether or not the EU and its predecessors improved things for anyone in particular is a subjective decision by the person involved. I was always opposed to its ability to be part of the political decisions affecting me.

My wife and I first decided to leave the UK in 1979 after we had lost a lot of sheep in the ‘78/9 winter. Anyone farming in Northumberland then will know how bad it was. I understand there have been some bad ones since, and I know there were some before. We could not afford to properly restock and our initial thoughts were to downsize. We found we could not afford a smaller place as they were fetching too much money. My brother, living in Australia, was home on a visit and arranged to have some farming papers sent over. We decided to give it a try. For about half the sale price of our 163 acres we bought a much superior house and 3000 acres – some good, some not so good. We discovered that moving country is easy.

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Mek said:

FOM may not have entered your head but it still existed and you benefited from it.

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Henarar said:

How do you know that ?

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Mek said:

Because it’s not something you can opt out of. Some people are born with benefits,others have benefits thrust upon them.

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Old McDonald said:

All these folks crying “Hypocrisy” about me moving from the UK to Portugal must be about ready to burst their boiler as the saying goes when I tell them I moved from another country into the EU in 1992. The matter of FoM did not enter my head when deciding to move to Portugal. We chose it because it is safe, extremely cheap to live; just about the only country that has not been at war with the UK (perhaps only England?), and we like Port.

Of course I have lots of spare time, I am retired. If you did not wrongly assume so much you would receive much shorter replies.

What a load of rubbish that following generations cannot move into the EU from the UK. The idea of FofM formed no part of my decision to vote out in both referendums. I have already told you that people are moving now. Unless the EU unilaterally decides to ban UK citizens from moving to the EU it will continue.

I did not state I had the money to live anywhere I want. Again you assume. We could not afford to live in Australia for instance otherwise we might have gone there instead of Portugal. We needed to cut back on our excessive workload on the Black Isle (literally 100+ hours each every week) and move to somewhere that needed less input of time. We had to provide as much of our own requirements as possible due to lack of income. Too old to go behind a desk yet again. That meant farming somewhere as it is the only way I can provide much for ourselves. I fully understand a lot more than you give me credit for when it comes to reading legislation, regulations and documents. It was part of my employment for more years than I wanted. I do understand that FoM allows people with almost nothing to move to another country. I knew several who were living in poverty in Portugal on a tiny piece of ground (only a few hundred Euros to buy such land) and had bought with the idea they would be self sufficient. They live in tents, caravans or camper vans and often have children. They are not all Brits. I am aware of, but never met, one British family, about 5 miles from me, who were reduced to foraging for food and all ended up in intensive care, apparently from eating poisonous fungus. That is the downside of FoM. Poor people end up somewhere where they have no family to help out in emergencies. Human nature means they will not beg for help in the neighbourhood so nobody knows how much they need assistance. Somebody able to buy next week’s groceries does not have that problem.

Is it really so much harder to move to the EU? Your admission that it is possible, even if harder is somewhat different to saying movement is denied, which if not explicitly stated, was implied in your earlier post, and others picked up and repeated similar.

Merely to get a Portuguese driving licence, and well before Cameron had even thought of a referendum, I had to get a residence permit. That was not straightforward. I have always been a peasant farmer – someone who farms with the purpose of providing subsistence for himself and dependants. I have never had spare cash. Everything I had was in the property, machinery and stock. I had to give details of all my assets; bank statements for some time, I forget how long; income and projected future income and prove I was entitled to live in the house I occupied. So, not unlike the requirements you say are needed in order to farm in France. It appears more difficult to move to France than some other places. Perhaps that is a hidden policy by the French. Furthermore I had to register with a medical practice before applying for my driving licence. To register I also had to prove my right to occupy my house.

@wanton dwarf take notice of this – it is supporting part of what you have already posted about restrictions, but only part. I did not use swimming pools, but I was told it was necessary to obtain some sort of permit for that too. Hearsay, but I believe it.

We thought we might as well get a residence permit for my wife too. The person interviewing us declined it because my wife has a pittance of an OAP as her sole income and it was not sufficient to grant her a permit. Eventually we managed to persuade the powers that be that through our peasant lifestyle and my pensions there was sufficient to support us both – but it took time.

You assume I am sheltered from the financial pressures of modern life. Wrong yet again. We eat well and heat our home as necessary, but until I am able to provide more food it costs us more to live than we have coming in. I do have a 10 year old car, but it is just about essential. You assume I am sheltered from the “every man for himself attitude” in the UK. If it exists throughout the UK, why would Orkney be different?

I do not personally know any ex-pats who have financial ties to the UK. Some on here do, but how many of them have indicated they intend to return to the UK permanently? It is obvious from their posts they do not, yet you assume that most ex-pats, twice you have said most, do have financial ties to the UK and you assume they want to return to the UK to live. You assume they do not hate the UK and want it to thrive and prosper. How many do you know (anywhere in the world) that fit your assumptions? I know more than a few that are the opposite to what you assume. I agree those who keep their British nationality have opinions and rights, but some become citizens of their adoptive country. Again I know some (all in Australia) who became Australian citizens. My own brother was one, although admittedly they were still recognised as also British by the UK.

I did not state that I returned to the UK for health reasons, and had to explain to you what I did say about health and living in softer climes, but you missed that. If things become too difficult here from a financial perspective we might move somewhere softer again.

As I have already told you, you did not vote to join the Common Market. Nobody did. Ted Heath took us into the then EC and Harold Wilson gave us the option to remain or get out. You may well have voted to Remain in 1975. You were going to get closer political ties for its members whether you liked it or not because that was the main aim - as I posted earlier about the Treaty of Rome and that is when you decided to start posting your wrong assumptions, responding to me about a post I had made to somebody else. You did not have to direct a post to me, but chose to do so. Whether or not the EU and its predecessors improved things for anyone in particular is a subjective decision by the person involved. I was always opposed to its ability to be part of the political decisions affecting me.

My wife and I first decided to leave the UK in 1979 after we had lost a lot of sheep in the ‘78/9 winter. Anyone farming in Northumberland then will know how bad it was. I understand there have been some bad ones since, and I know there were some before. We could not afford to properly restock and our initial thoughts were to downsize. We found we could not afford a smaller place as they were fetching too much money. My brother, living in Australia, was home on a visit and arranged to have some farming papers sent over. We decided to give it a try. For about half the sale price of our 163 acres we bought a much superior house and 3000 acres – some good, some not so good. We discovered that moving country is easy.

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Mek said:

You have not given my full quote. The hypocrisy was not that he used the freedom of movement within the EU to farm but that he used the freedom of movement to farm and then supports removing that same freedom of movement for others.

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Aspiring Peasants said:

Don't you think it's amusing that the main thing folks who decry the loss of FOM in the UK go on about, is it makes it harder for them to leave the country The truth is for most ordinary people, FOM kept wages down and unemployment higher. It's only a very small minority who want to emigrate or have holiday homes in Europe. One of the remain campaign lies was that leaving would cause unemployment to rise to 3 million whereas unemployment is now at a 45 year low. For most working people, lorry drivers, tradesmen etc, wages have increased significantly and they are better off.

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Aspiring Peasants said:

Don't you think it's amusing that the main thing folks who decry the loss of FOM in the UK go on about, is it makes it harder for them to leave the country The truth is for most ordinary people, FOM kept wages down and unemployment higher. It's only a very small minority who want to emigrate or have holiday homes in Europe. One of the remain campaign lies was that leaving would cause unemployment to rise to 3 million whereas unemployment is now at a 45 year low. For most working people, lorry drivers, tradesmen etc, wages have increased significantly and they are better off.

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Ncap said:

Ha ha ha. I guess you don't know.mix with many real working people.

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Aspiring Peasants said:

Don't you think it's amusing that the main thing folks who decry the loss of FOM in the UK go on about, is it makes it harder for them to leave the country The truth is for most ordinary people, FOM kept wages down and unemployment higher. It's only a very small minority who want to emigrate or have holiday homes in Europe. One of the remain campaign lies was that leaving would cause unemployment to rise to 3 million whereas unemployment is now at a 45 year low. For most working people, lorry drivers, tradesmen etc, wages have increased significantly and they are better off.

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Aspiring Peasants said:

Don't you think it's amusing that the main thing folks who decry the loss of FOM in the UK go on about, is it makes it harder for them to leave the country The truth is for most ordinary people, FOM kept wages down and unemployment higher. It's only a very small minority who want to emigrate or have holiday homes in Europe. One of the remain campaign lies was that leaving would cause unemployment to rise to 3 million whereas unemployment is now at a 45 year low. For most working people, lorry drivers, tradesmen etc, wages have increased significantly and they are better off.

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nivilla1982 said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609852454698635267

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Hindsight said:

Is that due to price of Gas being imported ?

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its yourself said:

The chance for people to work in Spain in summer and at ski resorts in winter was one of the most popular options on leaving education.
That and ERASMUS was deliberately destroyed by brexiters.
It's no wonder that demographic changes are killing the Tory party vote share.

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its yourself said:

The figure is worse than 3 million. Millions of people have a "job" on a zero hours contract so are classed as in work.
You say one million are unemployed.
There are 2.5 million economically inactive people in addition.
So brexit has been worse than the prediction.
Drivers etc are better off in the EU too. Most definitely not because of brexit.

Half a million more people are out of the labour force because of long-term sickness - Office for National Statistics

Between June and August 2022, around 2.5 million people were economically inactive because of long-term sickness, up from around 2 million in 2019

www.ons.gov.uk

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Brexit and Covid cause big jump in pay for lorry drivershttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england​

Aspiring Peasants said:

Typical cherry picking of data. I've copied the bit you left out from the ONS report you posted the link to

"This rise in long-term sickness started before the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, but since the pandemic hit the UK in early 2020, the number of people out of work because of long-term sickness has risen by 363,000.

A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce. Younger people have also seen some of the largest relative increases, and some industries such as wholesale and retail are affected to a greater extent than others. and

While symptoms of long COVID may not be the only contributor to increased long-term sickness in the working-age population, the pandemic’s wider impact on health is still likely to be an important factor in increased long-term sickness."

Again Brexit bogeyman trotted out for all problems. There's no mention of Brexit in the report.

Zero hours contracts? They started to heavily increase from 2010 and actually started to reduce slightly in 2018. The percentage of people in zero hours contracts in 2016 was 2.9%, in 2022 it was 3.2%. Wow, what a huge increase. https://www.statista.com/statistics/414981/employees-with-zero-hours-contracts-share/ Again nothing to do with Brexit.

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Wagon driver's wages. From the BBC

Brexit and Covid cause big jump in pay for lorry drivershttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england​

Drivers better off in the EU? According to yourself said, "not because of Brexit"

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Aspiring Peasants said:

Good news for the UK from the Daily Telegraph

As tumbling global stock markets suffered their worst year since 2008 in a near 20pc plunge, London’s blue-chip index eked out a 0.9pc gain over 2022.

It made the FTSE 100 the only major market to deliver investors positive total returns when also including dividends. The index finished the year at 7,451.74 points with total returns of 4.6pc.

The performance is a boost for London, whose stocks have been unloved since the Brexit vote. The FTSE 100 is still 3.5pc lower than it was five years ago, while the S&P 500 is up almost 39pc over the same time frame.

The FTSE 100 benefited from a falling pound, which boosts companies that earn money abroad and then turn it into British currency, as well as a strong performance by heavyweight energy and defence stocks including BP, Shell and BAE Systems.

The value of world shares was slashed by around a fifth as central banks rapidly increased interest rates to tame inflation and many economies heading towards recession

The S&P 500 slipped by more than 20pc as US tech titans plunged while the Euro Stoxx 50 - the largest eurozone blue-chips - tumbled 12pc.

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