Net Zero - its over.

Dave645 · Aug 14, 2023

Top Tip. said:
The only guarantee with nature is that nothing is guaranteed. The unpredictable nature of events over the millennia proves that . I know that you have swallowed the climate change debate hook line and sinker and it must be extremely frustrating for you to have heretics like me questioning your beliefs but as with any religion you won’t manage to convert everyone.

no conversion needed you are on this ride, as are we all, time will tell.

if you are right great.

to be honest I believe in renewable energy the rest is noise, when we stop burning stuff the dust will settle, there is no stopping climate, what will happen will happen.
I just want to put my money into a solution not more of the same, which is us just keeping burning stuff.

if that transition effects our long-term climate and health for the better its win, win, would you not agree?

br jones · Aug 14, 2023

Space Tourism Poses a Significant ‘Risk to the Climate’ - Inside Climate News

The burgeoning space tourism industry could soon fuel significant global warming while also depleting the protective ozone layer that is crucial for sustaining life on Earth, a new study concludes. The findings, published Saturday in Earth’s Future, raise additional concerns about the...

insideclimatenews.org

unlacedgecko · Aug 14, 2023

colhonk said:
It is time these peoples are taken to task and are Personally responsible for their actions.

Via madame guillotine?

Top Tip. · Aug 14, 2023

Dave645 said:
no conversion needed you are on this ride, as are we all, time will tell.

if you are right great.

to be honest I believe in renewable energy the rest is noise, when we stop burning stuff the dust will settle, there is no stopping climate, what will happen will happen.
I just want to put my money into a solution not more of the same, which is us just keeping burning stuff.

if that transition effects our long-term climate and health for the better its win, win, would you not agree?

What I see is the lack of basic accounting in this whole transition process for example there’s a biodigester not far from me that has a tanker load of diesel going into that digester every day to keep the various machines going, windmills which have 70 to 80 wagons of cement in the base and which will probably take 25 years to pay of the carbon debt in building them. The joke that you will get cheap power from renewables we are at the epicentre of the renewables revolution here in the Highlands and we have the dearest electricity in the UK. Life on earth depends on fossil fuels, from the clothes we wear to the food we eat all depends on fossil fuels unless you want to go back to living in caves there is no quick fix. Electricity is definitely not the answer what is i don’t know.

melted welly · Aug 14, 2023

delilah said:
I have been doing green sh!t all my working life

you still on breast milk or something?! Try weaning yourself onto some solid food, might sort it out.

Swarfmonkey · Aug 14, 2023

Dave645 said:
no conversion needed you are on this ride, as are we all, time will tell.

if you are right great.

to be honest I believe in renewable energy the rest is noise, when we stop burning stuff the dust will settle, there is no stopping climate, what will happen will happen.
I just want to put my money into a solution not more of the same, which is us just keeping burning stuff.

if that transition effects our long-term climate and health for the better its win, win, would you not agree?

If you wanted to put your money into a solution then you'd be demanding large nuclear power plants and SMRs to replace CCGT/OCGT power plants. 100% dispatchable power generation.

Dave645 · Aug 14, 2023

Top Tip. said:
What I see is the lack of basic accounting in this whole transition process for example there’s a biodigester not far from me that has a tanker load of diesel going into that digester every day to keep the various machines going, windmills which have 70 to 80 wagons of cement in the base and which will probably take 25 years to pay of the carbon debt in building them. The joke that you will get cheap power from renewables we are at the epicentre of the renewables revolution here in the Highlands and we have the dearest electricity in the UK. Life on earth depends on fossil fuels, from the clothes we wear to the food we eat all depends on fossil fuels unless you want to go back to living in caves there is no quick fix. Electricity is definitely not the answer what is i don’t know.

the majority of energy will come from solar a wind, bio and other small contributors will all remain so.

as for carbon impacts of moving and construction of sustainable energy for the next 30 years is still less than fossil full emission for a single year now.
if you want the quote skip to about 4 min 25 secs in.

Dave645 · Aug 14, 2023

Swarfmonkey said:
If you wanted to put your money into a solution then you'd be demanding large nuclear power plants and SMRs to replace CCGT/OCGT power plants. 100% dispatchable power generation.

not me I invest more locally like solar on a barn roof that way I can see what my money got me. each to their own if you like nuclear have at it.

Dave645 · Aug 14, 2023

Swarfmonkey said:
If you wanted to put your money into a solution then you'd be demanding large nuclear power plants and SMRs to replace CCGT/OCGT power plants. 100% dispatchable power generation.

nuclear will be a base, not a dispatchable power generation only a fool would use nuclear as dispatchable power generation, you would be paying for it to sit idle at vast expense.

Swarfmonkey · Aug 14, 2023

Dave645 said:
nuclear will be a base, not a dispatchable power generation only a fool would use nuclear as dispatchable power generation, you would be paying for it to sit idle at vast expense.

That's not what dispatchable power generation means. Dispatchable means you control the output. A full scale nuclear power station can ramp output up or down as required. With PV and Wind you are entirely dependant on factors beyond your control.

If you want to see an awful lot of money wasted then look at PV and wind. PV in the UK has a capacity factor of 8% at the time of year when demand is highest, and wind turbines have very specific operating envelopes. The Germans even have a word for when both of them are cack - dunkelflaute. That's when their PV and wind turbines are sitting idle at vast expense.

Dave645 · Aug 14, 2023

Swarfmonkey said:
That's not what dispatchable power generation means. Dispatchable means you can vary the output. A full scale nuclear power station can ramp output up or down as required. With PV and Wind you are entirely dependant on factors beyond your control.

still why, nuclear will be the most expensive on the grid, and you pay for it regardless of what's its generating, this is why its nearly always full on, and often exported.
just look on grid watch.

PS with energy storage on the grid these will stabilise the grid not ramping nuclear power.

Swarfmonkey · Aug 14, 2023

Expensive and reliable, or expensive and unreliable.

I dunno about you, but I prefer the former to the latter.

Dave645 said:
still why, nuclear will be the most expensive on the grid, and you pay for it regardless of what's its generating, this is why its nearly always full on, and often exported.
just look on grid watch.

PS with energy storage on the grid these will stabilise the grid not ramping nuclear power.

Energy storage at scale is a joke. You're looking at the country using around 950 GW/H per day during the part of the year with the highest demand. In Tesla Megapack terms you'd need 316,666 of them to store the power required for just one day, at a cost of $316 bn.

Dave645 · Aug 14, 2023

Swarfmonkey said:
Expensive and reliable, or expensive and unreliable.

I dunno about you, but I prefer the former to the latter.

Energy storage at scale is a joke. You're looking at the country using around 950 GW/H per day during the part of the year with the highest demand. In Tesla Megapack terms you'd need 316,666 of them to store the power required for just one day, at a cost of $316 bn.

solar and wind are the third option, cheap and unreliable that you missed out.

that's not how they plan to use storage, and storage is only one element of the new grid plan, do some research.

it's all possible and your or my opinions on the topic are irrelevant to the transition. it is happening and will continue to do so.

wanton dwarf · Aug 14, 2023

Swarfmonkey said:
Energy storage at scale is a joke. You're looking at the country using around 950 GW/H per day during the part of the year with the highest demand. In Tesla Megapack terms you'd need 316,666 of them to store the power required for just one day, at a cost of $316 bn.

Does that include Heat, Transport, Industry & Chemical usage of fossil fuels - each of which is similar or larger in scale than Electric generation ?

Swarfmonkey · Aug 14, 2023

Dave645 said:
solar and wind are the third option, cheap and unreliable that you missed out.

that's not how they plan to use storage, and storage is only one element of the new grid plan, do some research.

it's all possible and your or my opinions on the topic are irrelevant to the transition. it is happening and will continue to do so.

Cheap?!? Once you factor in the cost of storage and backup power generation they become hideously expensive. Frankly, those who do not take all the costs into account are either idiots or liars. There's plenty of shysters on the renewables gravy train, but they'll be long gone with a good chuck of dosh when Joe Public wakes up to how they've been fvcked over. The point they'll realise that they've been fvcked over is the day that ToU tariffs for power usage come in (already planned, and the entire reason behind the rollout of smart meters).

Perhaps you should have done some research into who originally lobbied for "smart grids" and "smart meters", and why? It sure as hell wasn't in order to benefit the consumer.

SilliamWhale · Aug 14, 2023

HatsOff said:
Caring about future generations is literally the opposite of narcissism.

I didn't call you a narcissist personally, but the four steps which end up with 'oh well it's too late to do anything now ' is very much the 'me me me' attitude with reflects the narcissist prayer.

I personally think we can build a sustainable energy system which will allow billions of future humans to have stable and fulfilling lives. (Yes I've been told I'm too optimistic to be a farmer.)

What I don't think is sensible is a fingers in ears approach and a few pie charts on the internet isn't going to convince me over thousands of scientists who have been observing the environment for decades. I also don't believe it's rational to think it's all a big conspiracy. Yes there is alarmism but I'm not alarmed, I just think we should ... Must... Take steps to turn the ship around to avoid runaway global warming.

Hopefully things will stabilise but if we can help lessen our impact on the future then morally we should.

Why is caring about the future generation about a nebulous issue more worthy than caring about the current generation from a different country now using fossil fuels to get them out of poverty? It's not.

Remember the whole ethos of net zero and ghg etc is based on predictions. I'm sure we will one day fully move away from fossil fuels but that moment is not now so why pretend about it? It's a deception.

HatsOff · Aug 15, 2023

SilliamWhale said:
Why is caring about the future generation about a nebulous issue more worthy than caring about the current generation from a different country now using fossil fuels to get them out of poverty? It's not.

Remember the whole ethos of net zero and ghg etc is based on predictions. I'm sure we will one day fully move away from fossil fuels but that moment is not now so why pretend about it? It's a deception.

Fossil fuels aren't the necessary part - it is energy. We don't necessarily need to burn stuff to get energy anymore.

However if your main argument is that people should be allowed to use fossil fuels to lift themselves from poverty then logically it follows that those not in poverty should do all the more to move away from them.

From my own observations the year has changed. February used to be winter. Could just be random natural variation but I am told by the scientists this pattern is repeated globally and lots of other data sources point towards global warming. Yes what may happen can't ever be predicted with certainty but it's quite a gamble to carry on and pretend nothing is wrong. A move away from fossil fuels means we could also free ourselves from reliance on despotic regimes and reduce air and water local pollution.

Top Tip. said:
probably take 25 years to pay of the carbon debt in building them.

Varies a lot depending on offshore or onshore. From as little as 47 days up to a few years.
https://www.windpowerengineering.co...-times-shorter-than-expected-finds-new-study/

SilliamWhale · Aug 15, 2023

HatsOff said:
Fossil fuels aren't the necessary part - it is energy. We don't necessarily need to burn stuff to get energy anymore.

However if your main argument is that people should be allowed to use fossil fuels to lift themselves from poverty then logically it follows that those not in poverty should do all the more to move away from them.

From my own observations the year has changed. February used to be winter. Could just be random natural variation but I am told by the scientists this pattern is repeated globally and lots of other data sources point towards global warming. Yes what may happen can't ever be predicted with certainty but it's quite a gamble to carry on and pretend nothing is wrong. A move away from fossil fuels means we could also free ourselves from reliance on despotic regimes and reduce air and water local pollution.

Varies a lot depending on offshore or onshore. From as little as 47 days up to a few years.
https://www.windpowerengineering.co...-times-shorter-than-expected-finds-new-study/

At the moment we cannot do without fossil fuel energy. We can do more of other stuff I'm sure but do not kid yourself.

Tell me how climate change has affected you directly? Why do you think elites care about climate but don't live a life that they do?

Kiwi Pete · Aug 15, 2023

Top Tip. said:
There is absolutely no guarantee that 0.1 change is what is causing climate change. That’s the problem no one knows it is all hypothetical.

Correct.

But you're not allowed to say so or "you're a [insert slur]"

In other words: believe the projections, don't believe your senses

Dave645 · Aug 15, 2023

Swarfmonkey said:
Cheap?!? Once you factor in the cost of storage and backup power generation they become hideously expensive. Frankly, those who do not take all the costs into account are either idiots or liars. There's plenty of shysters on the renewables gravy train, but they'll be long gone with a good chuck of dosh when Joe Public wakes up to how they've been fvcked over. The point they'll realise that they've been fvcked over is the day that ToU tariffs for power usage come in (already planned, and the entire reason behind the rollout of smart meters).

Perhaps you should have done some research into who originally lobbied for "smart grids" and "smart meters", and why? It sure as hell wasn't in order to benefit the consumer.

lol ok, ok, so you think paying double the price for energy is cheaper? enegy purely from fossil fuels are double those from renewable if not more.

solar and wind enegy are half that of gas, let's do the maths.

take an ever-increasing price for oil and gas as it diminishes and the increasing cost of extraction and costs to find it, and the pollution and health problems
(9 million deaths annually I think, and other health issues). then the wars, we have had to control them, Ukraine war the gulf war etc etc. I think you will find the numbers are staggeringly stacked against fossil fuel, and the cost of a renewable enegy transition is super cheap. especially when you factor no wars can be waged to control the resources, we need to build and sustain a renewable enegy future. Fossil fuel causes, multiple problems as you burn it, the cost of the clean-up of the air at the power stations, yes as you say some people not accounting for the true cost make can make mistakes. . .

against, a mine it once then recycles indefinitely, battery tech materials. low cost solar and wind, no air pollution or health issues. yes the maths do stack up, we end up mining and shipping less (oil is shipped) we get clean air. enegy prices at production are far lower.

driving an ice car is more per mile than an ev so I am very, very sure the sustainable energy system has the maths on its side, and that leaves only one of use acting like to quote you "either idiots or liars"

as for smart meters, smart grids, yes, I am sure ToU tariffs will come, maybe not mandatory, but when you see the price of enegy go negative you may want to take advantage.
like I said home battery installs to take advantage of ToU tariffs avoid the high prices and take advantage of low or even negative ones. are an option for every home.

Net Zero - its over.

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