Remoaners / rejoiners aren't all honest, and many are afraid to answer awkward questions...

M-J-G

M-J-G

Member
Location
Sunny Scotland (But I wasn't born here)
Danllan said:
Hang on, when people such as myself - and lots of others - claimed during the referendum campaign that the EU had worked itself into and had influence upon a huge part of our nation's law and administration, that was denied by the Remain camp. They, nationally and on TFF, claimed that the EU was not pervasive, had only the lightest touch and slightest influence on our affairs and that such claims were hyperbolic.

Of course Remain as a group were entirely honest and never set out to mislead anyone in the campaign. So how much of a plan - based on the Remain claims of hardly any EU influence - would a trusting Leaver have thought necessary? :)
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I'm not disputing any of that.

Has the removal of any of that influence changed any of our laws and administration?

Going forward, I won't make the naive mistake of voting for a vague notion with no plan in place.
I feel that's what's lacking in the New Ireland and Scottish Independence ideologies.
They should be made to put forward and commit to a detailed plan and give people something comprehensive, and likewise should be expected from the opposition.
Otherwise it's just nonsense.
 
S

Scots_Knight

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Aberdeenshire
M-J-G said:
I'm not disputing any of that.

Has the removal of any of that influence changed any of our laws and administration?

Going forward, I won't make the naive mistake of voting for a vague notion with no plan in place.
I feel that's what's lacking in the New Ireland and Scottish Independence ideologies.
They should be made to put forward and commit to a detailed plan and give people something comprehensive, and likewise should be expected from the opposition.
Otherwise it's just nonsense.
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Yep, totally agree I think this vague notion of what would happen after Scottish independence or Brexit didn't wash with me.

I just saw it as a blind leap in the dark and the more the Leave side and previously SNP up here talked big the more I doubted them.

I find it deeply ironic that we've still got to follow any EU laws on exports but just now have zero say also more costly paperwork.

Take back control, eh 🙄
 
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ollie989898

ollie989898

Member
Location
Hanging from a twig, in a deep sleep.
I voted out because I believed it couldn't possibly result in anything worse than the current shambles. Other than Boris (which would have happened anyway at some point, brexit or not), so far, so good. As I said ages ago the first bonus is that it upset remoaners and politicians alike, most of whom reside in London and who couldn't give two ticks about the plight of anyone else in the country.
 
Danllan

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
HatsOff said:
#thatsthejoke

Anyway - the answer I gave isn't actually my opinion (which is in brief that Brexit won't be that damaging but has been a waste of time. We are best off in the single market but out of the EU political machinery), it was trying to give the 'remoaner' (as you put it) view. I genuinely think the reason people aren't wanting to give Brexit time to work is because it really is not obvious where the benefits are going to come from, which is not the case when the UK joined the EEC.

As for your second question, yes we should always strive to be working from a common truth.

This is a perplexing thread. Do you really think it is worthwhile to write these types of threads and use language like 'remoaner'? Where Brexit is concerned there have been mistruths on both sides, not least from the Leave campaign.
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Before and following the Referendum I have stated that I think the economic benefits of Brexit will come, but are a structural and so necessarily a long-term thing. I think that in the medium-term things will be more or less as they were. I have no problem with free trade, and visa-free travel with friendly states is also fine with me, as is mutual recognition of qualifications. But I didn't and don't want unlimited free movement, and am entirely against any outside authority being recognised as equivalent to or higher than our own.

Yes, when hyperbole is used in a thread title of an opposite view, I see nothing wrong with this one. The whole point is to give the lie to the claims made by those opposed to Brexit that they won't / can't back up. That written, anyone making false claims for Brexit needs to be exposed and questioned too.

its yourself said:
This is a forum not a court.
You are not a judge.
Insults don't help your case.
I don't get to judge standards.
Nor do you.
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:chicken:

M-J-G said:
I'm not disputing any of that.

Has the removal of any of that influence changed any of our laws and administration?

Going forward, I won't make the naive mistake of voting for a vague notion with no plan in place.
I feel that's what's lacking in the New Ireland and Scottish Independence ideologies.
They should be made to put forward and commit to a detailed plan and give people something comprehensive, and likewise should be expected from the opposition.
Otherwise it's just nonsense.
Click to expand...
The point isn't so much that law changes, but that it can be changed and that the authority to do so rests here and nowhere else.

Interesting take on Scotland etc.; I've family who were very strong supporters of the SNP; but they aren't fools and are mightily p!ssed off with the whole situation there. The problem they have is that they are in fact politically conservative, but they still like the idea of independence. So they only had the SNP to vote for, yet the SNP were and are selling snake-oil and no more...
 
its yourself

its yourself

Member
Location
Scotland, Finland and France.
ollie989898 said:
I voted out because I believed it couldn't possibly result in anything worse than the current shambles. Other than Boris (which would have happened anyway at some point, brexit or not), so far, so good. As I said ages ago the first bonus is that it upset remoaners and politicians alike, most of whom reside in London and who couldn't give two ticks about the plight of anyone else in the country.
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Five rules of stupidity there.
 
A

Ashtree

Member
This mornings takeaway from this thread. Folks on here (leavers mainly) voted leave as it couldn’t possibly be worse than the status quo of membership. So regularly on here, read of conservative supporters who badly want NOT to vote conservative next time, as they are currently in a sh!t state, BUT, no matter will vote conservative, be cause said sh!t state, couldn’t be worse than any and all alternatives.
Wow! What a vista, to wake up to every morning. Nothing to do but take least worst options, from sunrise to sunset. Bit like life in Haiti, I guess….
 
its yourself

its yourself

Member
Location
Scotland, Finland and France.
Y

yoki

Member
BrianV said:
Serious troubles ahead for the EU, if only we were still part of it.

France, Germany, Portugal pitch EU levies and Ukraine ‘Marshall plan’​

BY JAKOB HANKE VELA
AUGUST 31, 2023 7:00 AM CET
>10 MINUTES READ

france-germany-portugal-pitch-eu-levies-and-ukraine-marshall-plan
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Interesting.

Instead of the UK having to change course dramatically to differentiate itself from the EU, maybe all it needs to do is stay on a broadly similar path while the EU insists on distancing itself from the rest of the world, including the UK.

Seems destined to get even more interesting here in Northern Ireland then as the gap between the two entities increases, with us stuck in the middle.

What fun!
 
B

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
yoki said:
Interesting.

Instead of the UK having to change course dramatically to differentiate itself from the EU, maybe all it needs to do is stay on a broadly similar path while the EU insists on distancing itself from the rest of the world, including the UK.

Seems destined to get even more interesting here in Northern Ireland then as the gap between the two entities increases, with us stuck in the middle.

What fun!
Click to expand...
Once the Americans decide they have other fish to fry the EU will end up financing this alone, that is unless of course our dozy lot to decide to be "world leaders" yet again.
 
Y

yoki

Member
BrianV said:
Once the Americans decide they have other fish to fry the EU will end up financing this alone, that is unless of course our dozy lot to decide to be "world leaders" yet again.
Click to expand...
Well we're rapidly back to something else hugely dependent on the Dems remaining in power aren't we.

As for 'our dozy lot', there's no doubt that our ruling classes would have no hesitation in throwing our hat in to the ring with their beloved EU, but I don't know that they could get away with something quite so blatant.

Might try something fly though!
 
H

HatsOff

Member
Mixed Farmer
Danllan said:
Before and following the Referendum I have stated that I think the economic benefits of Brexit will come, but are a structural and so necessarily a long-term thing. I think that in the medium-term things will be more or less as they were. I have no problem with free trade, and visa-free travel with friendly states is also fine with me, as is mutual recognition of qualifications. But I didn't and don't want unlimited free movement, and am entirely against any outside authority being recognised as equivalent to or higher than our own.

Yes, when hyperbole is used in a thread title of an opposite view, I see nothing wrong with this one. The whole point is to give the lie to the claims made by those opposed to Brexit that they won't / can't back up. That written, anyone making false claims for Brexit needs to be exposed and questioned too.
Click to expand...
Perfectly valid view but others disagree.

I disagree on the economy and immigration because so far the government's plan has been to join a new trade block on the other side of the world and have let in millions of migrants. So clearly free trade and immigration are important for our economy.

On the authority point of view... well, in the EU the member states are sovereign. The bureaucracy is delegated but by and large the UK got what it wanted. That we were never told what to do against our will is evidenced because not much has changed since we left so there clearly wasn't any burning issues.

Am I telling lies? No I don't think so. I also don't think you are telling lies. It's a difference of opinion and that doesn't mean either of us have to lie. It's called democracy!
 
Danllan

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
HatsOff said:
Perfectly valid view but others disagree.

I disagree on the economy and immigration because so far the government's plan has been to join a new trade block on the other side of the world and have let in millions of migrants. So clearly free trade and immigration are important for our economy.

On the authority point of view... well, in the EU the member states are sovereign. The bureaucracy is delegated but by and large the UK got what it wanted. That we were never told what to do against our will is evidenced because not much has changed since we left so there clearly wasn't any burning issues.

Am I telling lies? No I don't think so. I also don't think you are telling lies. It's a difference of opinion and that doesn't mean either of us have to lie. It's called democracy!
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Free immigration isn't mutually inclusive with free trade. You are right, the CPTPP is just a trading bloc, it doesn't seek to form a superstate. In passing, it has a marginally larger share of global GDP than the EU does, and its share is increasing and the EU's is decreasing.

A common refrain from people who deride the UK's membership of the CPTPP is that 'It's the other side of the World!', and these same fellows generally also try to do-down the UK by telling us that we only have service industries and don't manufacture much*. How odd then, that the UK should seek strategic membership of an organisation which has large and developing economies already in it, and others who want to join, all of which will require ever-higher amounts of service industry provision as their economies grow and develop...

No, no, no, what you have written about the EU states is not true. The EU has sovereignty; and this has been confirmed and repeatedly reiterated by the ECJ, the EC and the EP. It took me years to have this truth recognised and admitted by some on here. But in the end they had to accept it, the final arbiter of law in the EU is the ECJ, and it has repeatedly found itself to have precedence over all other organisations and jurisdictions within the EU.

As for not much has changed, not so, since the ECJ no longer has precedence here, and that single thing is massive in its effect. With regard to other things, well over a thousand EU-imposed laws have already been scrapped or significantly changed to suit our national interests; the last time I looked there were about another thousand in the process of being dealt with.

Your point of 'against our will' has been proven invalid for decades, with even the arch-EUrophile Roy Jenkins saying as much. Of course nobody will argue against clean water etc., and that was why the EEC / EC / EU sought to assume 'competence' (a.k.a. sovereignty) in such areas, and only later expanded its 'competence' - the EU doesn't like to use the word 'sovereignty', because it causes problems.

So the fact that we don't seek to change a rule handed out by the EU regarding, say, fire retardancy for a given material, doesn't infer support of or satisfaction with the EU's ability to tell us what to do. Rather, it suggests that the EU, having got 'competence' in this regard, just did what our own legislators would have anyway. And this is backed up by the existence of similar rules regarding fire retardancy across the world.

I don't think you were lying in what you wrote, as in telling a deliberate untruth; yet what you wrote is not factual. I attribute that to your sharing in a widely held misconception and ignorance of Constitutional and Public law in this field, not intent to deceive. And that isn't intended as an insult, aggressive put-down, derision or what-have-you, I am lawyer and have a good knowledge of the matter, I am not an engineer and consequently am ignorant of a great deal regarding that subject. (y)



*Yet didn't respond when I - in another thread - demonstrated that UK manufacturing is greater in volume and value than that of France...
 
A

Ashtree

Member
Danllan said:
Free immigration isn't mutually inclusive with free trade. You are right, the CPTPP is just a trading bloc, it doesn't seek to form a superstate. In passing, it has a marginally larger share of global GDP than the EU does, and its share is increasing and the EU's is decreasing.

A common refrain from people who deride the UK's membership of the CPTPP is that 'It's the other side of the World!', and these same fellows generally also try to do-down the UK by telling us that we only have service industries and don't manufacture much*. How odd then, that the UK should seek strategic membership of an organisation which has large and developing economies already in it, and others who want to join, all of which will require ever-higher amounts of service industry provision as their economies grow and develop...

No, no, no, what you have written about the EU states is not true. The EU has sovereignty; and this has been confirmed and repeatedly reiterated by the ECJ, the EC and the EP. It took me years to have this truth recognised and admitted by some on here. But in the end they had to accept it, the final arbiter of law in the EU is the ECJ, and it has repeatedly found itself to have precedence over all other organisations and jurisdictions within the EU.

As for not much has changed, not so, since the ECJ no longer has precedence here, and that single thing is massive in its effect. With regard to other things, well over a thousand EU-imposed laws have already been scrapped or significantly changed to suit our national interests; the last time I looked there were about another thousand in the process of being dealt with.

Your point of 'against our will' has been proven invalid for decades, with even the arch-EUrophile Roy Jenkins saying as much. Of course nobody will argue against clean water etc., and that was why the EEC / EC / EU sought to assume 'competence' (a.k.a. sovereignty) in such areas, and only later expanded its 'competence' - the EU doesn't like to use the word 'sovereignty', because it causes problems.

So the fact that we don't seek to change a rule handed out by the EU regarding, say, fire retardancy for a given material, doesn't infer support of or satisfaction with the EU's ability to tell us what to do. Rather, it suggests that the EU, having got 'competence' in this regard, just did what our own legislators would have anyway. And this is backed up by the existence of similar rules regarding fire retardancy across the world.

I don't think you were lying in what you wrote, as in telling a deliberate untruth; yet what you wrote is not factual. I attribute that to your sharing in a widely held misconception and ignorance of Constitutional and Public law in this field, not intent to deceive. And that isn't intended as an insult, aggressive put-down, derision or what-have-you, I am lawyer and have a good knowledge of the matter, I am not an engineer and consequently am ignorant of a great deal regarding that subject. (y)



*Yet didn't respond when I - in another thread - demonstrated that UK manufacturing is greater in volume and value than that of France...
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TFF, the Ukraine war and the CONZUK negotiations must be an absolute godsend to Mrs. Danllan. The amount of time you spend on the latter two, one of which you report in great detail on TFF and the other on which you plead a strategic fifth amendment equivalent, must be the difference between signing herself into a mental institution and just barely putting up with the never ending nonsense. Bless her, she has fortitude…
 
Danllan

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Ashtree said:
TFF, the Ukraine war and the CONZUK negotiations must be an absolute godsend to Mrs. Danllan. The amount of time you spend on the latter two, one of which you report in great detail on TFF and the other on which you plead a strategic fifth amendment equivalent, must be the difference between signing herself into a mental institution and just barely putting up with the never ending nonsense. Bless her, she has fortitude…
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Oh she has; and I am sure your keeper good lady could be written of similarly. :)
 
Danllan

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Right, so setting aside their invective and poor attempts at humour, the anti-Brexit contingent have signally failed to explain why both sides in this discussion should not be judged by the same objective standards. I am disappointed by this, but not surprised because there is no rational argument they can offer.

So, resigning myself to the fact that they won't address that one directly, let's have a go with the next thing that EUrophiles find it inconvenient to be honest about...

When the EEC / EC / EU treaties (actually constitutions, but they chose not to use that word...), the EC, almost all of the EP, the ECJ (by its existence & rulings) and, not least, the EU's own actions, all tell us that it wishes to be and is in the process of trying to become a 'superstate', why do EUrophiles tell us that nation states as entities are safe within the EU?*



*I write of what was and is; I am happy to concede that when if Ukraine makes it into the EU, the Eastern states will almost certainly force the EU to return to a mere trading bloc again.
 
L

linga

Member
Location
Ceredigion
HatsOff said:
why do EUrophiles tell us that nation states as entities are safe within the EU?

Because the UK was able to leave. Surely that demonstrates that EU membership is voluntary.
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I am sure I read, although I can’t find anything about it now , that after the UK left the rules were changed to the effect that if countries wanted to leave they would have to gain permission.
This, of course, might have been false information when I did read it. I might even have imagined that I did read it.
who knows ?!
 

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