Remoaners / rejoiners aren't all honest, and many are afraid to answer awkward questions...

Danllan · Sep 7, 2023

Scots_Knight said:
I'm sure I'll live to regret this but what the feck are you meaning by safety ??

Were we not safe before but just had to do joint decision making I'd say, somehow Brexiteers couldn't comprehend that concept.

My honest question to you if Brexit is so good why do you and other Brexiteers keep having to defend it ??

Safety? The integrity and autonomy of the nation state.

The emboldened text, like the EU's preferred term of 'competence' rather than sovereignty, is a euphemism, no more.

No need to defend it, yet a great need to call out the untruths etc. of those who decry it and blame everything upon it.

HatsOff said:
Clearly it means I think nation states remain intact - I guess that is the same as 'safe'? Can you kill something which is not alive?

Remarkable how you chaps will use and accept euphemism and analogy when convenient, but plead misunderstanding when it isn't...

HatsOff · Sep 7, 2023

Why are you intentionally trying to stoke division? I find this thread very, very odd.

Surely we're all on the same side? We want where we live to do well. We are allowed to have different opinions on the best way to do that.

Ashtree · Sep 7, 2023

ECJ still handing down rulings in “sovereign” UK.
Bless my soul, but ”sovereignty” is a funny thing…

Scots_Knight · Sep 8, 2023

Danllan said:
Safety? The integrity and autonomy of the nation state.

The emboldened text, like the EU's preferred term of 'competence' rather than sovereignty, is a euphemism, no more.

No need to defend it, yet a great need to call out the untruths etc. of those who decry it and blame everything upon it.

Thanks for your reply I was quite honestly confused how the word safety could be applied but I get what you mean.

I can't say that was ever a major concern for me to the point of wanting to leave, funny enough you sound a bit like a SNP hardcore supporter and yes I know your opinion of them.

They would say Scotland is being run by another country as Scotland has never had a majority vote for the Conservatives since the nineteen fifties.

Yes we have our own parliament but then they'd counter Scotland is being held back and we should leave.

Sound vaguely familiar

To be fair since Brexit not being able to get in the foreign workers so easily is holding us back but I still think we're better together and you might not miss us Scots but probably the oil and Whisky revenues

Actually your big problem was how Brexit was sold, it was something that was going to bring a revolution and major benefits, well you may be doing backflips over Sovereignty and the ECJ but I doubt most Red wall voters could care less.

Paying for food, rent, electricity is their main concern and wondering when the cheap Brexit food is coming ??

Lots know what they've lost because of what they had in the EU, freedom of movement, ask some of those Ex pats in Spain, delays at ports, watching the Irish whizz past them I believe goes down well apparently amongst the English

Added costs for all firms doing business into Europe being outside the Single Market.

Farmers losing BPS which for many will be crippling and I dread what our replacement in Scotland will be

I would like to think your wealthy so no real need of such payments, you never did give me a yes or no answer when I asked you if you'd any BPS to lose back in the Arthur Scargill thread.

I'll just assume you don't so basically Brexit will have very little impact on you.

Scots_Knight · Sep 8, 2023

HatsOff said:
Why are you intentionally trying to stoke division? I find this thread very, very odd.

Surely we're all on the same side? We want where we live to do well. We are allowed to have different opinions on the best way to do that.

He seems to like stirring it whilst most people are trying to move on the best we can.

We all looked at the question and voted in good faith what we honestly thought was best for ourselves, family or country.

Mind you I still can't get over farmers voting and gambling with support payments and post Brexit trade deals, when the obvious desire was for cheap imported food.

Anyway we are where we are so just have to make the best of it.

The one good thing I did thing that Brexit would bring is that Brexiteers would finally stop blaming everything on the EU, yet the Sun, Daily Express and GB news can't stop whining and winging about it.

Every restriction since we've become a Third country is the EU being spiteful despite us voting to make ourselves a Third country and have the hardest possible Brexit.

It's just not fair we deserved the Have Cake and Eat it clause

Danllan · Sep 8, 2023

Scots_Knight said:
Thanks for your reply I was quite honestly confused how the word safety could be applied but I get what you mean.

I can't say that was ever a major concern for me to the point of wanting to leave, funny enough you sound a bit like a SNP hardcore supporter and yes I know your opinion of them.

They would say Scotland is being run by another country as Scotland has never had a majority vote for the Conservatives since the nineteen fifties.

Yes we have our own parliament but then they'd counter Scotland is being held back and we should leave.

Sound vaguely familiar

To be fair since Brexit not being able to get in the foreign workers so easily is holding us back but I still think we're better together and you might not miss us Scots but probably the oil and Whisky revenues

Actually your big problem was how Brexit was sold, it was something that was going to bring a revolution and major benefits, well you may be doing backflips over Sovereignty and the ECJ but I doubt most Red wall voters could care less.

Paying for food, rent, electricity is their main concern and wondering when the cheap Brexit food is coming ??

Lots know what they've lost because of what they had in the EU, freedom of movement, ask some of those Ex pats in Spain, delays at ports, watching the Irish whizz past them I believe goes down well apparently amongst the English

Added costs for all firms doing business into Europe being outside the Single Market.

Farmers losing BPS which for many will be crippling and I dread what our replacement in Scotland will be

I would like to think your wealthy so no real need of such payments, you never did give me a yes or no answer when I asked you if you'd any BPS to lose back in the Arthur Scargill thread.

I'll just assume you don't so basically Brexit will have very little impact on you.

The analogy between me and the SNP stops at wanting to leave. All of my concerns regarding the EU were based on or could be traced back to sovereignty. Until I started to study law, in 2000, I was very pro-EU; because of free trade etc. etc.; however, on actually seeing and understanding the constitutional implications of membership, I was at first astonished and then horrified.

The country had been lied to consistently from the start, Parliament was no longer the prime source of law, and could not be. And, every year, more 'competences' were assumed by the EU - which, as always, avoided that inconvenient word 'sovereignty'.

I don't just think, but can demonstrate that certain British industries weren't held back, but were decimated by EEC / EC / EU membership, and this was apparent very soon after joining. And the country was told it would take time to see the benefits... as it was told that food and energy prices would decrease on entry - all increased.

If a fellow thinks it is fine to give up national autonomy, for whatever reason, I'll think him barking. But if he's open and is prepared to claim that he thinks it is worth it for whatever corresponding benefit he claims comes from it, that is his prerogative. But he must admit the truth of the situation, and he needs to justify why giving up self-government is worth what he claims.

I apologise for not replying in another thread regarding BPS, I don't recall the thread or the question now. I have not ever had, do not have and will not claim a subsidy of any sort, so no BPS or anything else like it. Not wealthy at all, comfortable.

HatsOff · Sep 8, 2023

It was decisions of UK government that decimated British business. They backed financial services to pay the bills and let everything else whither. They're doing it again with farming - import the food and sod growing our own.

ollie989898 · Sep 8, 2023

Ashtree said:
ECJ still handing down rulings in “sovereign” UK.
Bless my soul, but ”sovereignty” is a funny thing…

UK is not governed by the ECJ. The only way the UK will find itself involved in cases presented to the ECJ is if it is involved in a dispute with a third party that is in the EU.

You may be confusing the ECJ with the European Court on human rights, a very different thing that is unconnected to the EU, and rightly so- I think there were many more signatories to the European convention on human rights than there are EU countries. Wasn't Russia even a signatory to the European convention on human rights at one point?

ollie989898 · Sep 8, 2023

HatsOff said:
It was decisions of UK government that decimated British business. They backed financial services to pay the bills and let everything else whither. They're doing it again with farming - import the food and sod growing our own.

And yet the trade deficit with Europe widened every year the UK was a member of the EU. Explain to the UK tax payer how they derived any benefit throughout the UK's membership to the EU. Were UK exports to the rest of the world increased or enhanced?

No, all they did was slap down thousands of extra regulations in an attempt to homogenise the people of Europe. They are anti-competition and are a protectionist bastion against global market forces. It is likely actually, that if the EU did not adopt such a protectionist stance, net global trade would increase and countries throughout the world (not just those in Europe) would be better off.

Look at where the major gains in growth have occurred across the globe in the last 30 years. The big winners, you will find are those countries that rationalised their trade policies and actually gained from freer trading relationships. Not the countries who hide behind technical barriers and tariffs, creating isolationist islands which just blunt their international competitiveness over time.

HatsOff · Sep 8, 2023

ollie989898 said:
And yet the trade deficit with Europe widened every year the UK was a member of the EU. Explain to the UK tax payer how they derived any benefit throughout the UK's membership to the EU. Were UK exports to the rest of the world increased or enhanced?

No, all they did was slap down thousands of extra regulations in an attempt to homogenise the people of Europe. They are anti-competition and are a protectionist bastion against global market forces. It is likely actually, that if the EU did not adopt such a protectionist stance, net global trade would increase and countries throughout the world (not just those in Europe) would be better off.

Look at where the major gains in growth have occurred across the globe in the last 30 years. The big winners, you will find are those countries that rationalised their trade policies and actually gained from freer trading relationships. Not the countries who hide behind technical barriers and tariffs, creating isolationist islands which just blunt their international competitiveness over time.

What about French and German industry? I still think the majority responsibility for things that happen in the UK is the UK government.

ollie989898 · Sep 8, 2023

HatsOff said:
What about French and German industry? I still think the majority responsibility for things that happen in the UK is the UK government.

Are you seriously trying to tell me the French car industry benefits long term from the way the French have managed to slant EU trade policies? How many Citroen/Renaults do you see sold in North America?

Germany- importing shed loads of no-EU gas and oil, doesn't meet their NATO defence spending commitments and wonder why there is sentiment in the USA about unfair play? But then the Americans aren't' daft either- they pull a fast one on European car makers (VAG primarily) and snooker them that way on technical barriers on emissions. It's a two-way street.

Danllan · Sep 9, 2023

HatsOff said:
It was decisions of UK government that decimated British business. They backed financial services to pay the bills and let everything else whither. They're doing it again with farming - import the food and sod growing our own.

That is certainly true, because entry to the then EEC was a decision made by the UK government.

As for food, when the UK joined the EEC British Ag' was alright (as was fishing!) and food prices low; immediately afetr joining food prices rocketed and ag' became a benefit junky.

Now, anyone who thinks, from either side of the argument, that the number of small farms of, say, the 1970s was sustainable, doesn't understand the subject; so I'm not claiming that they would all still be here. But I will assert that the immediate removal of competitive necessity did the industry here no long-term favours at all.

And, if anyone wants to disagree with that, please explain why you think it a good thing to keep people on benefits rather than have them be self-sustaining and so self-supporting.

HatsOff · Sep 9, 2023

Danllan said:
That is certainly true, because entry to the then EEC was a decision made by the UK government.

As for food, when the UK joined the EEC British Ag' was alright (as was fishing!) and food prices low; immediately afetr joining food prices rocketed and ag' became a benefit junky.

Now, anyone who thinks, from either side of the argument, that the number of small farms of, say, the 1970s was sustainable, doesn't understand the subject; so I'm not claiming that they would all still be here. But I will assert that the immediate removal of competitive necessity did the industry here no long-term favours at all.

And, if anyone wants to disagree with that, please explain why you think it a good thing to keep people on benefits rather than have them be self-sustaining and so self-supporting.

I agree. Although it'll only be proven that the EU was responsible when there's any actual significant change in the governance of the UK that wasn't possible while being an EU member. That hasn't happened and I don't think the British public want to (I don't think I do).

On benefits... the majority of those on benefits are pensioners, the next largest chunk are long term sick, blind and disabled people. Benefits for fit, healthy, out of work people is a fraction of the overall bill and is at a minimal level. So while I don't think anyone would disagree with minimising benefits for those who just choose not to work, it's important to keep it in perspective to the overall cost.

Martin Holden · Sep 9, 2023

Danllan said:
Here is the first one of oh so many, which I have asked many times on TFF and have not yet had a single response to, it is always sidestepped, do your best ladies...

When people against joining the EEC, complained of seeing no economic benefit, just price rises and more bureaucracy etc., for many years they were told it would take more time to see a benefit, this went on into / through the 1980s, and that they shouldn't be so short-termist; why isn't that the case on leaving the EU?*

*I hope that none of us, regardless of political preference, are going to argue the toss about the EC / EEC / EU nomenclature; we joined one and it morphed to the others.

Your last sentence says it all really. I just wish others would see this. That’s not to say we shouldn’t be within the EU but it’s the bigger picture which many folk seem not to able to grasp the long term direction of travel

ollie989898 · Sep 9, 2023

Martin Holden said:
Your last sentence says it all really. I just wish others would see this. That’s not to say we shouldn’t be within the EU but it’s the bigger picture which many folk seem not to able to grasp the long term direction of travel

This is the crux of it: most Britons would agree that the UK being a member of a trading bloc of European countries, whose economies and societies are similar would be advantageous. But to have a single currency and be regulated by endless EU diktats- that is political union and no European person alive today benefits from that. That hundreds of MEPs even exist is a joke given the cost of the whole thing and an endless drain on taxpayers money.

le bon paysan · Sep 9, 2023

Widgetone said:
View attachment 1135582Its a pity to hear that, post Brexit, any overseas scientists will still have to apply for a visa to work on Horizon projects in the UK and, in some cases, their families will not be allowed to join them.

Martin Holden · Sep 9, 2023

ollie989898 said:
This is the crux of it: most Britons would agree that the UK being a member of a trading bloc of European countries, whose economies and societies are similar would be advantageous. But to have a single currency and be regulated by endless EU diktats- that is political union and no European person alive today benefits from that. That hundreds of MEPs even exist is a joke given the cost of the whole thing and an endless drain on taxpayers money.

More or less agree. Maybe as islanders we have a different perspective to the remaining land locked member states. No point in individual country parliaments if you have a super EU one. It’s pure duplication and another unnecessary cost to us all. I still believe many UK industries have lost out to the emerging EU funded East. I guess we were just asleep behind the wheel for too long

ollie989898 · Sep 9, 2023

Martin Holden said:
More or less agree. Maybe as islanders we have a different perspective to the remaining land locked member states. No point in individual country parliaments if you have a super EU one. It’s pure duplication and another unnecessary cost to us all. I still believe many UK industries have lost out to the emerging EU funded East. I guess we were just asleep behind the wheel for too long

The EU's game was always to gain the Eastern European states. It was their game plan from day 1. Offer money and tax incentives to get companies investing there because of the land, natural resources and significant populations to train as a workforce. The UK was always on a losing streak because of this.

There is no reason the UK could not be like Switzerland or perhaps to emulate the Nordic countries. A high tax economy, with a lean but productive workforce that focuses on financials, tech industries and energy- we have miles of coast for tidal power and have some of the best wind and tidal ranges anywhere in Europe. Our population will decline over time as the boomer effect disappears. The UK also has a major presence on the world stage which aids our international diplomatic and trade efforts.

We can all bemoan the loss of the UK's shipbuilding, coal and car industries, but these were always going to be have a hard time surviving in the global village. We don't burn much coal, ship building was always going to move to Asia because in reality ship building is in the main very simple and low technology. The car industry is experiencing carnage and will continue to do so for some years as all manufacturers are forced to rationalise their production lines- ultimately entire rafts of technology may disappear as engine and gearbox manufacture is curtailed by the rise of electric vehicles.

There always seems to be a contingent on TFF who view 1960s Britain as some kind of model we should aspire to. I have no idea why this is.

essex man · Sep 9, 2023

ollie989898 said:
The EU's game was always to gain the Eastern European states. It was their game plan from day 1. Offer money and tax incentives to get companies investing there because of the land, natural resources and significant populations to train as a workforce. The UK was always on a losing streak because of this.

There is no reason the UK could not be like Switzerland or perhaps to emulate the Nordic countries. A high tax economy, with a lean but productive workforce that focuses on financials, tech industries and energy- we have miles of coast for tidal power and have some of the best wind and tidal ranges anywhere in Europe. Our population will decline over time as the boomer effect disappears. The UK also has a major presence on the world stage which aids our international diplomatic and trade efforts.

We can all bemoan the loss of the UK's shipbuilding, coal and car industries, but these were always going to be have a hard time surviving in the global village. We don't burn much coal, ship building was always going to move to Asia because in reality ship building is in the main very simple and low technology. The car industry is experiencing carnage and will continue to do so for some years as all manufacturers are forced to rationalise their production lines- ultimately entire rafts of technology may disappear as engine and gearbox manufacture is curtailed by the rise of electric vehicles.

There always seems to be a contingent on TFF who view 1960s Britain as some kind of model we should aspire to. I have no idea why this is.

The uk benefited massively from eastern expansion and the cheap labour this provided under freedom of movement.
This helped keep a lid on inflation and encouraged growth in agricultural sector and many others.

Martin Holden · Sep 9, 2023

essex man said:
The uk benefited massively from eastern expansion and the cheap labour this provided under freedom of movement.
This helped keep a lid on inflation and encouraged growth in agricultural sector and many others.

Indeed this is true but what about all those industries that have “gone east” in the last 50 years?

Remoaners / rejoiners aren't all honest, and many are afraid to answer awkward questions...

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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