AHL2 - Winter Bird Food

H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Little squeak said:
For anyone who had trouble believing me. If you cannot believe this what option CAN you believe. I have removed my name and the name of the person who replied as it was an Email specifically to me









You
RPA Logo

SBI:
Business Name:
Our ref: SFI FULL (1.0) + CRM-3663971-F9P0Z0

Dear

Thank you for your email on 24 October 2023 about your SFI23 agreement.

I can confirm the answer to your question, "Could you inform me under the rules of the scheme could I grow a crop of spring barley then after the field had been cleared in August, sow winter bird food (AHL2) leaving it until I re sowed spring barley again in the following Spring?" is yes.

Also, there isn't a minimum time it has to be left in the ground to get paid for this option, as long as the rules are complied with for the actions.

What you need to do
You don’t need to do anything unless you disagree with contents of this email. If so, please contact us to discuss this.

If you have any questions about this email
You can email [email protected] or call us on 03000 200 301 (Monday to Friday, 8.30am to 5pm). Please tell us your SBI, which is at the top of this email.

Where you can find more information
You can find the most up-to-date information about the Sustainable Farming Incentive 2023 at Sustainable Farming Incentive: Scheme Guidance.

Yours sincerely


Sustainable Farming Incentive Operations
Click to expand...

Thats interesting. As you will not be delivering the flowering component in the 'purposes'. Flowering during summer months - which are June, July, August.

Very useful to have sight of these RPA definitions. Thanks.
 
F

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
Little squeak said:
For anyone who had trouble believing me. If you cannot believe this what option CAN you believe. I have removed my name and the name of the person who replied as it was an Email specifically to me









You
RPA Logo

SBI:
Business Name:
Our ref: SFI FULL (1.0) + CRM-3663971-F9P0Z0

Dear

Thank you for your email on 24 October 2023 about your SFI23 agreement.

I can confirm the answer to your question, "Could you inform me under the rules of the scheme could I grow a crop of spring barley then after the field had been cleared in August, sow winter bird food (AHL2) leaving it until I re sowed spring barley again in the following Spring?" is yes.

Also, there isn't a minimum time it has to be left in the ground to get paid for this option, as long as the rules are complied with for the actions.

What you need to do
You don’t need to do anything unless you disagree with contents of this email. If so, please contact us to discuss this.

If you have any questions about this email
You can email [email protected] or call us on 03000 200 301 (Monday to Friday, 8.30am to 5pm). Please tell us your SBI, which is at the top of this email.

Where you can find more information
You can find the most up-to-date information about the Sustainable Farming Incentive 2023 at Sustainable Farming Incentive: Scheme Guidance.

Yours sincerely


Sustainable Farming Incentive Operations
Click to expand...
I think that was perhaps the wrong question. What it is important to remember is in all likelihood the person who replied probably doesnt know a wheat plant from a coconut tree! They will have neither the knowledge or experience to determine with confidence if an August sown AHL2 could reasonably be expected to achieve both the "purpose" of summer flowering and provide adequate winter bird seeds.

The critical line to note in the reply is

"...as long as the rules are complied with for the actions."

Ie This email is none binding, our inspectors will determine if the rules have been complied with not I...
 
F

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
Hindsight said:
Thats interesting. As you will not be delivering the flowering component in the 'purposes'. Flowering during summer months - which are June, July, August.

Very useful to have sight of these RPA definitions. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Read it again and note the easily overlooked but critical line...

as long as the rules are complied with.....


It is as poor an answer as asking

Can I claim the no insecticide payment and still use insecticides?

and getting the response

Yes, as long as the rules are complied with..... :bag:
 
Adeptandy

Adeptandy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
PE15
Hindsight said:
Thats interesting. As you will not be delivering the flowering component in the 'purposes'. Flowering during summer months - which are June, July, August

Do those 'crops' provide flowers during all the Summer months?
Click to expand...
I dint really think they do, but thought it a better option than barley for a flowering plant and would also be more beneficial than wall to wall cereals
 
Adeptandy

Adeptandy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
PE15
How about S beans with an understory of shorter flowering plants that the beans will eventually smother, would be a weed suppressant to if the shorter flowering plants created a good ground cover 🤔
 
H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Mixedupfarmer said:
Where does it say flowering plants throughly ALL the Summer months?
Click to expand...

Copied the blow from RPA site and highlighted in Bold Black where it mentions 'flowering plants in the Summer'. I have not fixed view of the relevance of this bullet point but it is there written in the 'purpose', so I presume it has relevance when comes to delivering the 'aims'. Appreciate to some posters I may come over as very negative and playing devils advocate, and to an extent I am as being an agent professional indemnity insurance is never fr from my thoughts. Cheers.

AHL2: Winter bird food on arable and horticultural land​

What you’ll be paid​

You’ll receive £732 per hectare per year.

This action’s aim​

This action’s aim is that there are areas of winter bird food that produce a supply of small seeds for smaller farmland birds from late autumn until late winter.

The purpose of this is to:

  • provide food resources for farmland birds, especially in late autumn and winter
  • encourage flowering plants in the summer, which will benefit insects including bumblebees, solitary bees, butterflies and hoverflies
  • support an IPM approach if located close to cropped areas
 
M

Mixedupfarmer

Member
Location
Norfolk
Hindsight said:
Copied the blow from RPA site and highlighted in Bold Black where it mentions 'flowering plants in the Summer'. I have not fixed view of the relevance of this bullet point but it is there written in the 'purpose', so I presume it has relevance when comes to delivering the 'aims'. Appreciate to some posters I may come over as very negative and playing devils advocate, and to an extent I am as being an agent professional indemnity insurance is never fr from my thoughts. Cheers.
Most of the cash crops mentioned above will flower in the (early) summer. It does not say all summer. Your comments and opinions are most welcome, it needs to be got right if possible.

AHL2: Winter bird food on arable and horticultural land​

What you’ll be paid​

You’ll receive £732 per hectare per year.

This action’s aim​

This action’s aim is that there are areas of winter bird food that produce a supply of small seeds for smaller farmland birds from late autumn until late winter.

The purpose of this is to:

  • provide food resources for farmland birds, especially in late autumn and winter
  • encourage flowering plants in the summer, which will benefit insects including bumblebees, solitary bees, butterflies and hoverflies
  • support an IPM approach if located close to cropped areas
Click to expand...
 
F

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
Mixedupfarmer said:
Where does it say flowering plants throughly ALL the Summer months?
Click to expand...
It doesnt say ALL summer months but equally it doesnt say PART of the summer...

If a light hand view is taken that could be interpreted to mean flowers for a single day, if a heavy hand is taken that could be interpreted to mean 3 months or best part of....

I for one am uncomfortable gambling mutli thousand sums of money on the interpretational goodwill of an RPA inspector. Equally I will be peeved if I see others "getting away" with things I did not believe to be within the rules.

Whilst I do very much welcome the less prescriptive, more flexible approach, at the same time we do require a degree of clarity. The response to a query regards a proposed plan of action should be very clear, either a yes if you follow that proposed course of action it has been deemed to be acceptable for the duration of this agreement or no that will not be accepted go have a rethink. Or c we agree to let you try it for a year, if we are not satisfied with the results you may be asked to adjust how you deliver this option in year 2 and 3, we wont wait until the end of year 3 and only then reclaim 3 years.

In my opinion it is unacceptable for a response that includes the phrase "as long as the rules are complied with....." Such a response provides no clarity and leaves the door wide open to a review by someone taking a different interpretation and the possibility of being made to repay, significant sums, in retrospect. :facepalm:
 
H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Most of the cash crops mentioned above will flower in the (early) summer. It does not say all summer. Your comments and opinions are most welcome, it needs to be got right if possible.

Yes, they will flower. Concurr the wording is ambiguous: you correctly point out it does not say all summer. It actually says 'the summer'. I just noted 'summer' as defined in SFI comprises June, July, August and thus concluded 'the summer' might be interpreted as comprising those three months and if so that didn't really fit in with the flowering period of usual cash crop such as Pulses, Potatoes, Linseed, Rape. And that was the tenet of my devils advocate reply. A shame Janet Hughes has departed the TFF boards as this is the ideal clarification she as the head of the deaprtment could have taken away and come back with definitive answers to scenarios. I think anything she signed off I would consider unchallengeable. As it is I shall look forward to other TFFer posts on this thread. And keep a keen eye out for articles in farming press from more recognised advisers and hopefully at some stage RPA staff.
 
L

Little squeak

Member
Location
Lancashire
If anyone feels I asked the wrong question feel free to ask one of your own and post the reply on here. I did ask several times before I got an answer to the first question of YES. I had asked for it to be ecalated upwards if they could not answer it. Who do I have to get an answer off The Rt Hon Steve Barclay MP?
 
Try to succeed

Try to succeed

Member
Hindsight said:
Thats interesting. As you will not be delivering the flowering component in the 'purposes'. Flowering during summer months - which are June, July, August.

Very useful to have sight of these RPA definitions. Thanks.
Click to expand...
The AB9 frequently didn’t do that in stewardship, depending on the mix/drill date etc. It was always ok as long as it produced the winter seed, which is the ‘aim’ of AHL2. The other bit about encouraging other points is not the aim, but a beneficial by-product of achieving that singular aim. (Although I’ve emailed for clarity to ensure my understanding 😂)
 
H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Try to succeed said:
The AB9 frequently didn’t do that in stewardship, depending on the mix/drill date etc. It was always ok as long as it produced the winter seed, which is the ‘aim’ of AHL2. The other bit about encouraging other points is not the aim, but a beneficial by-product of achieving that singular aim. (Although I’ve emailed for clarity to ensure my understanding 😂)
Click to expand...

Indeed - we need to know and understand the legal relevance of the word and term 'this actions aim' and 'the purpose'. In terms of how Defra and the RPA Inspectorate intend interpreting the legal status. Without that we are just guessing is the reality of this exchange of views. You make an interesting comparison with AB9 and your reply that the 'Aim' is primary and only essential outcome with the 'purpose' being secondary and to all intents irrelevant?

Look forward to your report when RPA reply to your question.

Best wishes,
 
H

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Little squeak said:
If anyone feels I asked the wrong question feel free to ask one of your own and post the reply on here. I did ask several times before I got an answer to the first question of YES. I had asked for it to be ecalated upwards if they could not answer it. Who do I have to get an answer off The Rt Hon Steve Barclay MP?
Click to expand...

Hi Little Squeak, can you clarify what you mean by 'asked several times' before getting the answer 'Yes'.
 
L

Little squeak

Member
Location
Lancashire
This was their first responce I cannot find any others, just basically told to look for yourself, I have rung them several times too.

Sustainable Farming Incentive (SFI): Response to query CRM-3663971-F9P0Z0 SBI -



You replied on Mon 10/23/2023 5:36 PM
You replied on Mon 10/23/2023 5:36 PM
Rural, Payments









You
RPA Logo

SBI:
Business Name:
Our ref: SFI FULL (1.0) + CRM-3663971-F9P0Z0

Dear

Thank you for your email on 21 October 2023 about your SFI23 agreement.

Please see below a link, where information regarding AHL2 can be found.
How to do the SFI actions for farmland wildlife on arable and horticultural land - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
What you need to do
You don’t need to do anything unless you disagree with contents of this email. If so, please contact us to discuss this.

If you have any questions about this email
You can email [email protected] or call us on 03000 200 301 (Monday to Friday, 8.30am to 5pm). Please tell us your clients SBI, which is at the top of this email.

Where you can find more information
You can find the most up-to-date information about the Sustainable Farming Incentive 2023 at Sustainable Farming Incentive: Scheme Guidance.

Yours sincerely


Sustainable Farming Incentive Operations

Rural Payments Agency (Sustainable Farming Incentive) | PO Box 325 | Worksop | S95 1DG
[email protected] | 03000 200 301 | www.gov.uk/rpa/sfi
Follow us on Twitter @Ruralpay
 
S

Sleepeasy

Member
Against_the_grain said:
I emailed the RPA and have now had confirmation that you cannot plant crops such as s barley/potatoes/maize in the spring following AHL2 as it is a full year option.
I think this is a real shame as it rules out this option for tens of thousands of hectares imo.
I think the full year is beyond the aims of the 'winter bird food' requirement but that's what they have said.
Click to expand...
That’s not what the rpa told me at a trade show yesterday evening 🤣 what a joke
 

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