SFI 24 no till payment

delilah said:

Two specific points, one general one:

- On the 'less carbon released'. How many Ha of arable land need to be in DD, and for how many years, to compensate for the carbon released by ploughing up 1 Ha of PP ?

- On the 'less energy used to plant crops'. Our neighbour ploughs everything. Would be really interesting to see a study done on the energy they use compared to DD. A whole farm study, over a 12 month period, because to take any one day of the year (drilling day) in isolation is of limited worth.

- Any SFI measure needs to pass the SMART test. specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound
I'm not sure the DD sub passes any of those . As this thread demonstrates, it is falling at the first hurdle of 'specific', as it can't be agreed what constitutes DD.

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redsloe said:

Not sure why you would decide to cultivate before a cover crop and then DD for a spring crop?

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ajd132 said:

Because from my extensive experience on heavy land this is the by far the most foolproof way of establishing a spring crop and utilising cover crops. Straight zero till spring crops into cover crops here has been very hit and miss over the years.

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yellow belly said:

simple

notill is notill either disc or tine

ocasional dd is not notill
strip till is not notill

rpa already define drills for notill in the capital grants

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Hindsight said:

Will it? There are more folk who haven't yet dipped there finger into the honey jar yet! 17,000 applications so far, that leaves what 50,000 not applied yet. I know as I am about to submit three first applications today. And have four or five more to get in during May. Then am on some already submitted looking to go back with a SAM2 IPM3 application.

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Huno said:

What? Does that mean??

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Badshot said:

Its not that difficult really.
I can plant an acre for about 2 litres of diesel, I'm using far less chemicals to control weeds too.
Its one machine for establishing a crop, not subsoiler, plough, cultivator, drill, rolls all of which require a lot of energy to manufacture.
How many litres does it take to plough an acre? 10?
Same for subsoiling.
Ph drill same
Roll, 1

So conservative estimate at 30 litres if doing full on deep tillage which many do.


It doesn't take a genius to see the massive reduction possible.

More weeds to control from continuous ploughing as yearly turning up the same seed bank results in more chemistry being applied.

I agree a properly done study would be

It just requires a change of mindset, which most are not prepared to do.

And I've always agreed that DD requires direct stubble planting with minimal disturbance.
Those that argue the point are normally those that aren't doing it, or able to benefit from doing so, or have failed to make it work.


Theres always a line to be drawn, and those on the wrong side feel hard done by

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yellow belly said:

if you do not know then its not notill and do not claim sfi notill

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yellow belly said:

agree totally

all the trials done on notill i have seen are not long enough

the trial system has a flaw in that drilling is done on the same day
notill should be earlier in the autumn and later in the spring compared to cultivated
should be the whole system and rotation that is compared

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Badshot said:

Its not that difficult really.
I can plant an acre for about 2 litres of diesel, I'm using far less chemicals to control weeds too.
Its one machine for establishing a crop, not subsoiler, plough, cultivator, drill, rolls all of which require a lot of energy to manufacture.
How many litres does it take to plough an acre? 10?
Same for subsoiling.
Ph drill same
Roll, 1

So conservative estimate at 30 litres if doing full on deep tillage which many do.


It doesn't take a genius to see the massive reduction possible.

More weeds to control from continuous ploughing as yearly turning up the same seed bank results in more chemistry being applied.

I agree a properly done study would be

It just requires a change of mindset, which most are not prepared to do.

And I've always agreed that DD requires direct stubble planting with minimal disturbance.
Those that argue the point are normally those that aren't doing it, or able to benefit from doing so, or have failed to make it work.


Theres always a line to be drawn, and those on the wrong side feel hard done by

Click to expand...

Badshot said:

Its not that difficult really.
I can plant an acre for about 2 litres of diesel, I'm using far less chemicals to control weeds too.
Its one machine for establishing a crop, not subsoiler, plough, cultivator, drill, rolls all of which require a lot of energy to manufacture.
How many litres does it take to plough an acre? 10?
Same for subsoiling.
Ph drill same
Roll, 1

So conservative estimate at 30 litres if doing full on deep tillage which many do.


It doesn't take a genius to see the massive reduction possible.

More weeds to control from continuous ploughing as yearly turning up the same seed bank results in more chemistry being applied.

I agree a properly done study would be

It just requires a change of mindset, which most are not prepared to do.

And I've always agreed that DD requires direct stubble planting with minimal disturbance.
Those that argue the point are normally those that aren't doing it, or able to benefit from doing so, or have failed to make it work.


Theres always a line to be drawn, and those on the wrong side feel hard done by

Click to expand...

tullah said:

I can see that reverting back into veg and arable after this madness will have created a massive wireworm problem.

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Badshot said:

Its not that difficult really.
I can plant an acre for about 2 litres of diesel, I'm using far less chemicals to control weeds too.
Its one machine for establishing a crop, not subsoiler, plough, cultivator, drill, rolls all of which require a lot of energy to manufacture.
How many litres does it take to plough an acre? 10?
Same for subsoiling.
Ph drill same
Roll, 1

So conservative estimate at 30 litres if doing full on deep tillage which many do.


It doesn't take a genius to see the massive reduction possible.

More weeds to control from continuous ploughing as yearly turning up the same seed bank results in more chemistry being applied.

I agree a properly done study would be

It just requires a change of mindset, which most are not prepared to do.

And I've always agreed that DD requires direct stubble planting with minimal disturbance.
Those that argue the point are normally those that aren't doing it, or able to benefit from doing so, or have failed to make it work.


Theres always a line to be drawn, and those on the wrong side feel hard done by

Click to expand...

Adeptandy said:

every little helps

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delilah said:

- On the 'less carbon released'. How many Ha of arable land need to be in DD, and for how many years, to compensate for the carbon released by ploughing up 1 Ha of PP ?

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delilah said:

Neighbour is organic, which invalidates some of the points you make. More importantly, it shows that it's impossible to apply a blunt instrument such as a payment for one specific crop establishment method and expect it to produce public good.





Does it though ? Until someone has a stab at answering the question I asked - below - how can we know that this SFI standard is going to help, when folks are simultaneously ploughing up their grass due to the lack of sufficient incentive to leave it be ? My contention is that as things stand it is public money for public harm.

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alomy75 said:

Good point. Interesting. So it looks likely they will either tighten up the rules on what the ‘no-till’ will pay out on or as you say limit uptake as per the ahl2

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