1st Experience with Electric Car

[Dave645]

Even if they could do that is the capacity in the network to "carry" the load, round here they wont allow any more large scale solar as the network cant carry it, I'm not saying it cant be done but time is very short. I would love an electric pick up but price and range rule it out

There are 2 factors in any national grid peak load, and base load,

The image above is what those look like, factor in the max last year was 47gw peak load, source of data grid watch uk, and they covered it.
you can begin to see how there is capacity in the grid, we pay power plants to sit idle, now factor in smart grids smart charging and two way charging where cars actually power the grid and the car owner can earn from that, you see where we are going, yes we are not there yet and government regulation and planning would be helpful but more EV’s can provide a more stable and cheaper to run national grid not the reverse.
You can see power stations stop producing power as renewables take over etc.

sure again we are not there yet, but these things are being planned for.
As of yet EV’s are a tiny fraction of the cars on the road, I would like to see measures to make all new EV’s able to do 2 way charging and become part of the solution not the problem, with a smart system being able to charge or discharge any car plugged in to home chargers. those at rapid chargers will maybe get throttled as in slow the charge they get but never have the charger pulling back to the grid from the car.

when you do the maths it’s easy to see how it will work, in fact if 30 million cars were all EV’s they could power the entire of the uk for a number of days just from stored energy in car batteries.

Also note the average mileage is about 9000 miles now that’s 24 miles per day and an average EV can do an 4 miles per kWh so that’s about 6 kwh of power per day at any point in the day the grid has Spare capacity, thats less than 1 hour on a home charger averaged out.

And don’t fear the system will not leave you with no charge if your car has powered the grid just before you needed it, you can set limits on the cars batteries state of charge say you do 60 mile round trip to work and you know that’s ok if you have 50% charge then you can set a min state of charge say 55% and then charge and discharge the car from the grid always leaving your car at a min of 55%, I would also expect you can opt out if preparing for a long trip. And need a full charge fast. Fast being about 7 kwh at home.

 

[Dave645]

Been looking at EV options lately, I do a lot of miles, about 30k a year and last month I spent £800-900 on diesel...absolutely crippling. I'm not sure there are any 'rugged' EV options that can deal with some off-roading?

The only thing that puts me off is the battery situation (last time I checked they are non-recyclable?) and the mining of the lithium...

They do as it’s very lucrative, VW and others are doing it and recover about 96% the 4% being the glue and stuff that cannot be recovered for reuse.

 

[Exfarmer]

There are 2 factors in any national grid peak load, and base load, View attachment 1046920
The image above is what those look like, factor in the max last year was 47gw peak load, source of data grid watch uk, and they covered it.
you can begin to see how there is capacity in the grid, we pay power plants to sit idle, now factor in smart grids smart charging and two way charging where cars actually power the grid and the car owner can earn from that, you see where we are going, yes we are not there yet and government regulation and planning would be helpful but more EV’s can provide a more stable and cheaper to run national grid not the reverse.
You can see power station stop producing power as renewables take over etc.

sure again we are not there yet, but these things are being planned for.
As of yet EV’s are a tiny fraction of the cars on the road, I would like to see measures to make all new EV’s able to do 2 way charging and become part of the solution not the problem, with a smart system being able to charge or discharge any car plugged in to home chargers. those at rapid chargers will maybe get throttled as in slow the charge they get but never have the charger pulling back to the grid from the car.

when you do the maths it’s easy to see how it will work, in fact if 30 million cars were all EV’s they could power the entire of the uk for a number of days just from stored energy in car batteries.

Also note the average mileage is about 9000 miles now that’s 24 miles per day and an average EV can do an 4 miles per kWh so that’s about 6 kwh of power per day at any point in the day the grid has Spare capacity, thats less than 1 hour on a home charger averaged out.

And don’t fear the system will not leave you with no charge if your car has powered the grid just before you needed it, you can set limits on the cars batteries state of charge say you do 60 mile round trip to work and you know that’s ok if you have 50% charge then you can set a min state of charge say 55% and then charge and discharge the car from the grid always leaving your car at a min of 55%, I would also expect you can opt out if preparing for a long trip. And need a full charge fast. Fast being about 7 kwh at home.

The Uk has somewhere around 75 Gw of generating capacity. This includes about 28Gw of wind and 14Gw of solar. This means we have only 33Gw of guaranteed capacity ( excluding break downs and servicing.) this is plenty in the summer especiall;y with the reserve of battery cars in the future. However it will be a different story in. The winter wen PV generation is very low and only at Mid day. A continental high can entirely wipe out the wind generation and I would guess most car owners being quite savvy people will doubtless set their battery charge levels to the max to ensure their tank is full , just as they do in a fuel shortage.
The truth is the UK is perilously close to a disaster since if we get too close to maxing out the voltage levels will drop and the grid will cut out. We may in fact be in a situation where shortages in just the South East could Cause a complete shut down even though there was a surplus elsewhere in the UK, thanks to a lack of transmission capacity and politicians failure's to get to grips with the Nimbys

 

[Lincsman]

Isn't the whole of Glastonbury powered by diesel generator?

There's going to have to be a sea change in the capability of the rural power grid to support de-carbonising the economy. The restrictions on additional renewable connections will have to end too.

Improving the grid does not decarbonise anything, it just moves it, we are a long way from all green electricity, currently about 27%, and as we get more electric cars its likely to go down.

 

[Pilatus]

As regards EV’s I wonder how much petrol and diesel is consumed by cars compared to what is used by commercial vans and HGV vehicles in this country, and other countries around the planet?
I appreciate it must been develop smaller electric motors for vehicles and gradually develop larger ones.
While out for Sunday lunch yesterday, some one said they thought Hydrogen will be the way forward to power large vehicles, as Diesel engines can be converted to Hydrogen, and whether Mercedes’ Engine division may be working on that idea. What are your thoughts on that idea.

 

[Lincsman]

As regards EV’s I wonder how much petrol and diesel is consumed by cars compared to what is used by commercial vans and HGV vehicles in this country, and other countries around the planet?
I appreciate it must been develop smaller electric motors for vehicles and gradually develop larger ones.
While out for Sunday lunch yesterday, some one said they thought Hydrogen will be the way forward to power large vehicles, as Diesel engines can be converted to Hydrogen, and whether Mercedes’ Engine division may be working on that idea. What are your thoughts on that idea.

Top gear had a hydrogen car last night, and it seems all you do is pick the pump with hydrogen written on it and fill your petrol car, its £10 /litre though... even so no hassle and green if the hydrogen was made with a solar panel., and as a bonus a full "charge" in 79 seconds.

If they get the cost down it will be petrol / hydrogen engines in lorries.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

As regards EV’s I wonder how much petrol and diesel is consumed by cars compared to what is used by commercial vans and HGV vehicles in this country, and other countries around the planet?
I appreciate it must been develop smaller electric motors for vehicles and gradually develop larger ones.
While out for Sunday lunch yesterday, some one said they thought Hydrogen will be the way forward to power large vehicles, as Diesel engines can be converted to Hydrogen, and whether Mercedes’ Engine division may be working on that idea. What are your thoughts on that idea.

Could work but the is EROEI. Collecting H2 as a liquid fuel is energy intensive so you end up using way more energy than if you'd just used the original energy source. Not an issue if you've got a large excess of energy available....

'Making' liquid hydrogen by electrolysis is about 80% efficient, by steam processing is around 60%. Then you burn it in a spark ignition engine that is itself only about 35% efficient. Large energy losses involved.

By comparison, EVs are over 90% efficient and don't involve the intermediate step.

Hydrogen has it's place but not as a mainstream energy source imho.

 

[Dave645]

The Uk has somewhere around 75 Gw of generating capacity. This includes about 28Gw of wind and 14Gw of solar. This means we have only 33Gw of guaranteed capacity ( excluding break downs and servicing.) this is plenty in the summer especiall;y with the reserve of battery cars in the future. However it will be a different story in. The winter wen PV generation is very low and only at Mid day. A continental high can entirely wipe out the wind generation and I would guess most car owners being quite savvy people will doubtless set their battery charge levels to the max to ensure their tank is full , just as they do in a fuel shortage.
The truth is the UK is perilously close to a disaster since if we get too close to maxing out the voltage levels will drop and the grid will cut out. We may in fact be in a situation where shortages in just the South East could Cause a complete shut down even though there was a surplus elsewhere in the UK, thanks to a lack of transmission capacity and politicians failure's to get to grips with the Nimbys

I am sure your right and I agree with your points, worse case has to be used for planning
That’s why I think local energy production will become more common, while solar and wind are variable, then can easily be added to local areas far more simply than a new nuclear plant could.
That and local grid storage will be built up, to cover growing loads.
My local substation is having A massive upgrade not sure what but I could see a large storage system being put next to sub stations to act as buffers for the grid to help cope with local demand that national transmission systems cannot cope with.
The grid is upgrading and changing they know load changes are coming the banning of new car sales for on EV’s is coming so that was a line in the sand for the speed up of change.
will we get problems, it’s likely, but if we do I expect we will see smart grid tech getting rolled out. As mandatory on new home appliances and EV and charge stations to give the grid the power to control demand to some extent as well as supply.

 

[Exfarmer]

Could work but the is EROEI. Collecting H2 as a liquid fuel is energy intensive so you end up using easy more energy than if you'd just used the original energy source. Not an issue if you've got a large excess of energy available....

'Making' liquid hydrogen by electrolysis is about 80% efficient, by steam processing is around 60%. Then you burn it in a spark ignition engine that is itself only about 35% efficient. Large energy losses involved.

By comparison, EVs are over 90% efficient and don't involve the intermediate step.

Hydrogen has it's place but not as a mainstream energy source imho.

Hydrogen is not the b all and end all for cars. Due to the extreme pressures Fuel tanks are horrendously heavy and thus small. Also it is relatively less energy dense than petrol or diesel so you need 30% more. This means range will be very limited for the average car, not such a big issue for HGV and tractors

 

[Drillman]

Hydrogen is not the b all and end all for cars. Due to the extreme pressures Fuel tanks are horrendously heavy and thus small. Also it is relatively less energy dense than petrol or diesel so you need 30% more. This means range will be very limited for the average car, not such a big issue for HGV and tractors

Question I would ask is hydrogen fuel tanks any heavier than LPG?

as for refuelling and range, if filling up with hydrogen is quick range isn’t as important.

 

[rollestonpark]

Question I would ask is hydrogen fuel tanks any heavier than LPG?

as for refuelling and range, if filling up with hydrogen is quick range isn’t as important.

currently finding a hydrogen fuel station is a big ask...
I think for cars EVs have it for now, main stream hydrogen lorries/tractors seem someway off yet.
Although JCB seem to be working hard on hydrogen currently.
Plugging in the car at home seems nice and easy compared to driving around looking for a hydrogen (petrol) station.

 

[Drillman]

currently finding a hydrogen fuel station is a big ask...
I think for cars EVs have it for now, main stream hydrogen lorries/tractors seem someway off yet.
Although JCB seem to be working hard on hydrogen currently.
Plugging in the car at home seems nice and easy compared to driving around looking for a hydrogen (petrol) station.

Yes I realise the infra structure for hydrogen isn’t there yet.

but also strongly believe that plugging your car in to the mains to fill it up with electricity isn’t the way forwards long term.

 

[Y Fan Wen]

EVs have their place esp in the crowded SE and cities and general running around but for a petrol head looking at the dying of the light.... you can stuck them where the sun don't shine

Rick, have you noticed the current AA tv advert? It takes in South Stack, Holyhead yacht harbour, Four Mile Bridge, and ends on the Straits. I thought at first it was Moel y Don but looking at the map Tal y Foel is a better fit. What do you think? The coast road could be the back road from Trearddur past Porth Dafarch but I don't think so.
Anybody recognise the earch bridge? I have no idea where that might be.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Question I would ask is hydrogen fuel tanks any heavier than LPG?

as for refuelling and range, if filling up with hydrogen is quick range isn’t as important.

How long before there are many hydrogen fuel stations in the Highlands though? Without that range IS an issue for some.

And you can't just carry a jerry can of hydrogen like you can with petrol/diesel either..

 

[Drillman]

How long before there are many hydrogen fuel stations in the Highlands though? Without that range IS an issue for some.

And you can't just carry a jerry can of hydrogen like you can with petrol/diesel either..

Yes I realise the infra structure for hydrogen isn’t there yet.

but also strongly believe that plugging your car in to the mains to fill it up with electricity isn’t the way forwards long term.

 

[Exfarmer]

Question I would ask is hydrogen fuel tanks any heavier than LPG?

as for refuelling and range, if filling up with hydrogen is quick range isn’t as important.

LGP is 350 PSI or 24 bar
Liquid Hydrogen is a minimum of 5 -10,000 PSI.
Hydrogen tankers cart it about at minus 250 celcius to achieve the requirement for lower pressure. This involves a double skinned tank.
Relative to petrol you will need to carry 4 times as much hydrogen to get the mileage due to its lower energy rating per litre.
Be wary of those people who quote as being 8 times more energy as petrol since this is per kilo and ahydrogen weighs approximately 40 grams a litre

 

[Y Fan Wen]

I still think methanol is the way to go for a 'manufactured' fuel. Used in racing and drag racing in the US, all the problems with handling it are known.

 

[warksfarmer]

This is in the USA.

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[ollie989898]

I still think methanol is the way to go for a 'manufactured' fuel. Used in racing and drag racing in the US, all the problems with handling it are known.

Same issue as with ethanol- not as much energy per unit volume. I think butanol may be a bit better in this respect as slightly more energy dense and nearly a drop in replacement.

 

[Bald Rick]

Rick, have you noticed the current AA tv advert? It takes in South Stack, Holyhead yacht harbour, Four Mile Bridge, and ends on the Straits. I thought at first it was Moel y Don but looking at the map Tal y Foel is a better fit. What do you think? The coast road could be the back road from Trearddur past Porth Dafarch but I don't think so.
Anybody recognise the earch bridge? I have no idea where that might be.

Sorry, not seen the advert