30 years of environmental stewardship wasted

[warksfarmer]

One question is that when the dust settles and the uptake is poor where will the pot of money go?

They aren’t going to revamp it again so they won’t get the rewilding they need to go worldwide carbon trading.

With what’s going on around the globe at the minute we need to start fracking quickly. Get Hinckley point finished asap and then build another one somewhere else. We could literally be on the brink of another war.

 

[Hesstondriver]

I did a telephone interview with someone on how the new system was going to affect me and what I was going to do . They were quite surprised when I said my main drive would be intensification, upping stock numbers and total output.
I mentioned ploughing up old PP / meadow grass ( that NE Have already given permission for) Nearly sent her in to melt down . and then I said any scheme that did not have food production at the center of it was not of any interest.

 

[warksfarmer]

I did a telephone interview with someone on how the new system was going to affect me and what I was going to do . They were quite surprised when I said my main drive would be intensification, upping stock numbers and total output.
I mentioned ploughing up old PP / meadow grass ( that NE Have already given permission for) Nearly sent her in to melt down . and then I said any scheme that did not have food production at the center of it was not of any interest.

I’ve done the very same interview and said exactly the same thing. The lady in the end said there wasn’t much point carrying on.

 

[Hjcarter]

Never claimed for any environmental schemes but I am very proud of what we did off our own backs, and of the big increases in wildlife as a result.

Same here.

Planted hedging, dug ponds, created pollen rich zones, planted pollinating trees, hosted 20 hives last year.

I claim bps but all the other schemes seem so complex or restrictive that I can't justify the admin overhead or tie in so when bps goes I'll be receiving nothing. But at least I'll be more master of my own destiny!

 

[ollie989898]

I did a telephone interview with someone on how the new system was going to affect me and what I was going to do . They were quite surprised when I said my main drive would be intensification, upping stock numbers and total output.
I mentioned ploughing up old PP / meadow grass ( that NE Have already given permission for) Nearly sent her in to melt down . and then I said any scheme that did not have food production at the center of it was not of any interest.

No one can stop you ploughing up pasture no matter how old it is, you just need to do an EIA first. If you've been mowing, putting fertiliser to or spraying out grassland weeds then there is little hope it will have any species of real interest in it and so you will do no harm ploughing it.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

No one can stop you ploughing up pasture no matter how old it is, you just need to do an EIA first. If you've been mowing, putting fertiliser to or spraying out grassland weeds then there is little hope it will have any species of real interest in it and so you will do no harm ploughing it.

But NE have to agree with the EIA, don't they?

There is NO route to appeal if they don't it seems...

 

[Hesstondriver]

Never claimed for any environmental schemes but I am very proud of what we did off our own backs, and of the big increases in wildlife as a result.

Following on from my above post about intensification. I’ve just spent this afternoon planning where I’m going to put duck tubes on a pond I’ve just restored and what flower mix I’m going to put round it .
I love seeing habits that I’ve done stuff to become something’s home where they live and breed .

 

[Neddy flanders]

Actually 31 years since we entered 12% of our farm into the original Countrywide Stewardship scheme. That 12% remains out of production today but now in Mid Tier. It’s seen various name changes of the scheme over the years such as ELS, HLS, ESS, CS - I’ve lost count to be honest but it matters not. The point is that land hasn’t been used commercially for 31 years.

In 2023 when our current scheme ends it’s going to be ripped up and we will crop every square inch of it. The new ELMS scheme is just astonishingly poor and DEFRA must think we’re all stupid if they think it’ll be adopted on mass. Our only option is to farm everything and farm it hard to push output in the hope it’ll go towards the loss of BPS.

The new ELMS schemes have been designed to end farming in this country. Our government is actively shutting us down through the removal of income that subsidised food production. They know it’ll hurt 80% of farms and their plan is to import food. The pandemic has taught them nothing.

It’s a sad state of affairs when 31 years of environmental good is ended due to poor government thinking.

why will you rip it up when you dont even know the payment rates for ELMS Local Nature recovery?

 

[ajcc]

But NE have to agree with the EIA, don't they?

There is NO route to appeal if they don't it seems...

No one can stop you ploughing up pasture no matter how old it is, you just need to do an EIA first. If you've been mowing, putting fertiliser to or spraying out grassland weeds then there is little hope it will have any species of real interest in it and so you will do no harm ploughing it.

But NE knows best and the EIA Regulations are invented by them as their “raisin d’etre “ that and sssi designations.
Which came first the chicken or the egg in 2006?

 

[ollie989898]

But NE have to agree with the EIA, don't they?

There is NO route to appeal if they don't it seems...

How are NE going to argue the case? If an agronomist has turned up, looked at what is there and listed it in a written EIA, it's a done deal.

Like I said, as an agronomist, I would only be prepared to put pen to paper if I walked the land in question and knew how the farmer had been managing it. If he has been spraying, fertilising and mowing the land etc, it won't have any rare or interesting species so it will be no obstacle. Why these restrictions on permeant pasture exist is to stop people going out and ploughing land that should be protected and which historically wasn't brought into true cultivation because it was impractical to do so.

SSSI regulations are another kettle of fish and they are much more set in stone. The problem with these agencies is that if you become a person of interest they will stick to you like the proverbial to a blanket and hound everything you do.

A while back everyone was getting really concerned because the ministry had stated anything that was in grass for 5 years would be termed 'permeant pasture' and loads of people spoke to me with the concern that they had to plough all and sundry to avoid this label. The ministry did not invent these rules to oblige farmers to plough everything up. In reality the real permeant pasture regulations were designed to stop people ploughing up habitat that hadn't been 'farmed properly' for decades.

 

[ollie989898]

This is the black and white guidance from the .GOV website.

As you can see, the average farm will have no issue ploughing up whatever they want- who has land that hasn't been cultivated or farmed for 15 years? You all keep records on fert, spray and the like, you've an armoury of stuff to provide any inspector.

If you want to go farming a historical site or natural moorland or heathland etc then that is another matter.

 

[Wombat]

This is the black and white guidance from the .GOV website.

As you can see, the average farm will have no issue ploughing up whatever they want- who has land that hasn't been cultivated or farmed for 15 years? You all keep records on fert, spray and the like, you've an armoury of stuff to provide any inspector.

If you want to go farming a historical site or natural moorland or heathland etc then that is another matter.

View attachment 1016660View attachment 1016660

It does say they are part of cross compliance so surely when bps goes who gives one

 

[ollie989898]

It does say they are part of cross compliance so surely when bps goes who gives one

No, the legislation (EIAs apply to land per se, so go beyond farming) is backed by law and they can fine you, etc and make you reinstate the land.

Once BPS goes, cross compliance will also so you will be freed from that carp.

 

[redsloe]

Actually 31 years since we entered 12% of our farm into the original Countrywide Stewardship scheme. That 12% remains out of production today but now in Mid Tier. It’s seen various name changes of the scheme over the years such as ELS, HLS, ESS, CS - I’ve lost count to be honest but it matters not. The point is that land hasn’t been used commercially for 31 years.

In 2023 when our current scheme ends it’s going to be ripped up and we will crop every square inch of it. The new ELMS scheme is just astonishingly poor and DEFRA must think we’re all stupid if they think it’ll be adopted on mass. Our only option is to farm everything and farm it hard to push output in the hope it’ll go towards the loss of BPS.

The new ELMS schemes have been designed to end farming in this country. Our government is actively shutting us down through the removal of income that subsidised food production. They know it’ll hurt 80% of farms and their plan is to import food. The pandemic has taught them nothing.

It’s a sad state of affairs when 31 years of environmental good is ended due to poor government thinking.

I think you want to be careful.
In 2023 you could might still be able to apply for a new CS scheme to start in 2024. That will continue payments the same as now for a few more years.
It's likely, I think, that SFI payments will increase as BPS reduces, it would be foolish to rip up a chunk of environmental benefits only to look back in the future and wish you'd kept them.
@Janet Hughes Defra needs to emphasise this fact more if that is the case otherwise I agree ELMS is going nowhere.

On the other hand wftdik.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I did a telephone interview with someone on how the new system was going to affect me and what I was going to do . They were quite surprised when I said my main drive would be intensification, upping stock numbers and total output.
I mentioned ploughing up old PP / meadow grass ( that NE Have already given permission for) Nearly sent her in to melt down . and then I said any scheme that did not have food production at the center of it was not of any interest.

I’ve done the very same interview and said exactly the same thing. The lady in the end said there wasn’t much point carrying on.

It says rather a lot when they terminate an interview when they aren't getting the replies they want.
That is the very information they should want to know.

 

[Bury the Trash]

i, ELMS is being touted as a way of farmers claiming public money for public good, it isn't.

i read the op as being bitter the schemes arent continued as they have been ie paying for wildlife habitat sort of thing which some farmers do anyway without any 'scheme' plenty of hedges and treed areas here that are left and are to no detriment of commercial farming

imo ops poor reaction to ie rip up all the good work 'like cut off nose to spite face , '

i, ELMS is being touted as a way of farmers claiming public money for public good, it isn't.

ii, It is claimed that farmers will have access to a pot of money the same size as BPS, they will not.

iii, It is called a Sustainable Farming Initiative, but isn't.

I think this thread perfectly encapsulates this.

People use 'poetic licence in business im afraid , its always been the case, funnily enough one of my pet hates as well.

to me it now all just seems its all same old as ever farmer moaning ,
better ime to stop that and start thinking hard about solutions ,answers to problems as they will always be there ,like change ,its constant always has been every second infact ,no avoiding it either, just think ,learn how to go with it.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

i read the op as being bitter the schemes arent continued as they have been ie paying for wildlife habitat sort of thing which some farmers do anyway without any 'scheme' plenty of hedges and treed areas here that are left and are to no detriment of commercial farming

imo ops poor reaction to ie rip up all the good work 'like cut off nose to spite face , '

People use 'poetic licence in business im afraid , its always been the case, funnily enough one of my pet hates as well.

to me it now all just seems its all same old as ever farmer moaning ,
note to self, switch off button can be used i guess.

I genuinely don't believe most of us are moaning, but feeling exasperated at how a once in a generation overhaul of UK agriculture is being done so badly.

It isn't so much as 'cutting ones nose off' as facing the reality and making decisions with respect to the loss of BPS. If the payments for maintaining our natural areas are so derisory, they can't be that important.

I do believe there is a massive difference in ELMS payments depending on whether you are into arable or livestock. It's livestock farming that they will not support.

{I'll make an educated guess that the OP, @Beefsmith is a livestock farmer}

 

[Bury the Trash]

I genuinely don't believe most of us are moaning, but feeling exasperated at how a once in a generation overhaul of UK agriculture is being done so badly.

come off it, what did you expect from people in offices ?

It isn't so much as 'cutting ones nose off' as facing the reality and making decisions with respect to the loss of BPS. If the payments for maintaining our natural areas are so derisory, they can't be that important.

nonsense if nature cant be allowed along side commercial farming then there's peoples attitude to blame nothing else. for instance look at all the machinery and vehicles money (needlessly often) spent on , a fraction of that will plant/ maintain a few trees in a corner or allow a boggy corner to be left,a pond to be dug, maize millet and sorghum grown and left for a small shoot whatever.

If your a proper farmer you should be a proper countryman .

Ive said enough now and Secret Army is on in a minute, thats far more interesting and see them people in occupied countries boy did have changes and unimaginable changes to cope with .

ciao .

 

[Hesstondriver]

But NE have to agree with the EIA, don't they?

There is NO route to appeal if they don't it seems...

Ask for forgiveness

 

[yellow belly]

Actually 31 years since we entered 12% of our farm into the original Countrywide Stewardship scheme. That 12% remains out of production today but now in Mid Tier. It’s seen various name changes of the scheme over the years such as ELS, HLS, ESS, CS - I’ve lost count to be honest but it matters not. The point is that land hasn’t been used commercially for 31 years.

In 2023 when our current scheme ends it’s going to be ripped up and we will crop every square inch of it. The new ELMS scheme is just astonishingly poor and DEFRA must think we’re all stupid if they think it’ll be adopted on mass. Our only option is to farm everything and farm it hard to push output in the hope it’ll go towards the loss of BPS.

The new ELMS schemes have been designed to end farming in this country. Our government is actively shutting us down through the removal of income that subsidised food production. They know it’ll hurt 80% of farms and their plan is to import food. The pandemic has taught them nothing.

It’s a sad state of affairs when 31 years of environmental good is ended due to poor government thinking.

Can join mid tier in 2023 and 2024
they could offer you a mirror agreement