Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
would it not be quite a low profit though? surely profit needs to be high given the work and capital required?
All things Dairy
- Thread starter Cows 'n grass
- Start date
High Profit is very much in the eye of the beholder. A consistent 10% return on capital employed would be the envy of many businessmen. It might not mean a six figure profit depending on the scale of the business
After attending a discussion group meeting yesterday I came to the conclusion that I have to get my sh#t together! So from today cows are now out by night, dropped silage out and cut conc by 0.5kg to challenge them a bit more. Have been doing 2.1kg solids/cow so let's see what happens.
Headless chicken
Member
- Location
- West Wales
Taking free range to a new level. 246 finds her way here nearly every milking. She comes back on her own wants she's had a wonder and a bit of grub
Nicked from fb.
@Manney we ought to be all cutting concentrate to nothing soon.
Why are YOU feeding meal to the cows this spring?
Forget for a minute about your neighbour, your discussion group and “we have always done it this way”, I would like to know if you have considered why you are feeding meal and how you have come to the decision on what quantity to feed.
I have been with farmers feeding rates of zero to date, to others feeding 8Kg/cow/day and, amazingly enough, the herd being fed zero is producing more KgMS/cow/day than the one feeding 8Kg/cow/day. The farm feeding the high rate of meal has a higher pasture cover than the one feeding none, soil conditions are similar but the cost of feed is €2/cow/day higher with the meal. (€200/day per 100 cows, €1400/100 cows/week)
The reality is that very often, meal is fed to substitute for poor pasture management or through being convinced by the salesman that the cows need the meal to support high levels of production. A farmer I spoke to this morning mentioned that his “nutritionist” had “advised” him to feed 5Kg/cow/day. Conveniently, the “nutritionist” was also the supplier of the meal so really, the title is just a glorified version of “salesman”. He never asked what the pasture cover was, soil conditions, stocking rate, area grazed etc etc so I’m not really sure how the 5Kg/cow figure was arrived at.
I find there is a real lack of understanding and believing in the grass in most cases where high levels of meal/cake/ration/concentrate are fed, often misled by sales people and backed up by the performance from grass, but usually grass that has been poorly managed.
The reality is that cows eat grass. How you manage it makes ALL the difference in the level of production achieved from it. The main driver of production is energy, I always use the Mega Joules of Metabolisable Energy (MJME) measure to look at intakes, rather than looking at KgDM alone as it helps focus on what drives production.
Good pasture in the second/third rotation can potentially have 12.5MJME/KgDM and cows can be managed to get intakes up to 18KgDM/cow/day+ on pasture alone. This means at 18KgDM intakes, the cow would achieve intakes of around 225MJME/day. She would use 65 to 70MJME for live-weight maintenance, leaving 160MJME for production. It takes around 5.5MJME to produce a litre of milk at 8-8.2% fat and protein so 160MJME divided by is 29 litres or 2.3 to 2.4KgMS/cow/day.
If you have left high residuals in the previous rotation or tend to graze grass when it has got beyond 3000KgDM/Ha (1500KgDM/Ha available) then the digestibility of the grass will reduce which limits the energy in the plant as well as the volume the cow is able to consume. This may be only a minor difference of then consuming 17.5KgDM at 12MJME/KgDM, or, as is often the case of the farmers feeding high levels of meal, further deterioration of the grass quality limits the digestibility limits intakes to 16.5-17KgDM/cow at 11 to 11.5MJME/KgDM.
17.5KgDM at 12MJME is 210MJME, minus 65MJME for LW = 145MJME = 26.4 litres
17KgDM at 11.5MJME is 200MJME, minus 65MJME for LW = 131MJME = 23.8 litres
As you can see, the calculation looks minor but the consequences are huge, the cows eating 17KgDM at 11.5MJME/KgDM now need to be fed 4Kg of meal/cow/day just to get them to the same production as the cows eating the well managed pasture with no meal at all!!
The other massive influencing factor is substitution. If it wasn’t for substitution then you could feed the cows as much as you like, they would eat the grass and the meal you fed would go directly to production. Using the above figures to produce milk, if the cow has already maintained her LW then every Kg of meal at 12MJME/Kg+ would produce another 2 litres+ but this is never the case, the reason being substitution.
For every Kg of meal a cow eats, she will eat a certain amount less grass. Research would suggest that the average cow will have around a 10 to 20% substitution rate for the first Kg of meal, around 50% for the second, 80 to 90% for the third and 90%+ for every Kg thereafter. This means that for the 4th Kg of meal fed at 25 cents/Kg, the cow will eat 0.9KgDM+ less grass (which should come at a cost of around a quarter of the cost of the meal)
Not only that, the more meal you feed, the more difficult it becomes to achieve target pasture residuals as appetite is suppressed by the meal. This means that you now run the risk of lower quality pasture in the next rotation through feeding meal which is a cost to production.
Ultimately you have now spent money on meal to result in costing you money in lost production, unless you now feed more meal to compensate which is what happens in many of the high feeding rate situations. No wonder you don’t believe in the benefits of grass anymore as the production potential from the lower digestibility/MJME grass is limited, you just need to understand that this is as a result of management, not the potential of grass.
If you have enough grass and are able to get good utilisation grazing it, there is no reason to be feeding more than 2Kg/cow meal for optimum profitability, only reason is to chase output but we have all heard the saying; “production is vanity, profit is sanity”!!
Some myths;
• In wet weather cows need more meal to compensate for the lower DM in the grass
My view; Grass doesn’t magically have a substantial drop in DM% when it rains. If you put a leafy salad in a bowl and then sprinkled water all over it, the leafy salad is still the same DM but the overall dish is now a lower DM due to the water included. Grass is much the same, the cows will take in more water with the grass in wet weather but as a rule they need to take in at least 3 litres of water for every litre of milk produced, they now just need to do fewer trips to the drinking trough to get this intake. The only reason you may need to offer more meal in wet weather would be if utilisation of grass drops due to treading or smearing mud over the grass which lowers grass intakes.
• Holstein cows need high levels of meal or they’ll lose too much weight/not produce/not get in-calf
My view; Holstein cows are at risk of having an energy deficit in early lactation called adipose tissue mobilisation. The higher the diet protein %, the greater the issue. You would get better results feeding 3Kg/cow high energy, low protein ration then you would if you feed 6Kg/cow 18% “fancy name nut”, it is more about balancing what’s in surplus in the grass then to add extra to it.
• I need to feed 4Kg of meal to get “full rate” of magnesium into the cows
My view; What is full rate? Most farmers don’t seem to know what the actual requirements are but just go with what the feed rep tells them. Get a blend of straights mixed with enough Mg to fulfil requirements. If you want to supplement 80g/cow/day, get 40g of Mg/Kg mixed in. Alternatively, find another way to get Mg into the cows that is more economic.
• I need to feed some meal to get the cows to come into the parlour
My view; In most cases, cows are more settled after a week with no meal than for those that feed a Kg or so/cow. Cows are creatures of habit. Break the habit.
So, in a nutshell, long covers, substitution and feed/mineral/machinery sales reps are the devil…..let them tempt you not.
Be profitable and enjoy farming
@Manney we ought to be all cutting concentrate to nothing soon.
Why are YOU feeding meal to the cows this spring?
Forget for a minute about your neighbour, your discussion group and “we have always done it this way”, I would like to know if you have considered why you are feeding meal and how you have come to the decision on what quantity to feed.
I have been with farmers feeding rates of zero to date, to others feeding 8Kg/cow/day and, amazingly enough, the herd being fed zero is producing more KgMS/cow/day than the one feeding 8Kg/cow/day. The farm feeding the high rate of meal has a higher pasture cover than the one feeding none, soil conditions are similar but the cost of feed is €2/cow/day higher with the meal. (€200/day per 100 cows, €1400/100 cows/week)
The reality is that very often, meal is fed to substitute for poor pasture management or through being convinced by the salesman that the cows need the meal to support high levels of production. A farmer I spoke to this morning mentioned that his “nutritionist” had “advised” him to feed 5Kg/cow/day. Conveniently, the “nutritionist” was also the supplier of the meal so really, the title is just a glorified version of “salesman”. He never asked what the pasture cover was, soil conditions, stocking rate, area grazed etc etc so I’m not really sure how the 5Kg/cow figure was arrived at.
I find there is a real lack of understanding and believing in the grass in most cases where high levels of meal/cake/ration/concentrate are fed, often misled by sales people and backed up by the performance from grass, but usually grass that has been poorly managed.
The reality is that cows eat grass. How you manage it makes ALL the difference in the level of production achieved from it. The main driver of production is energy, I always use the Mega Joules of Metabolisable Energy (MJME) measure to look at intakes, rather than looking at KgDM alone as it helps focus on what drives production.
Good pasture in the second/third rotation can potentially have 12.5MJME/KgDM and cows can be managed to get intakes up to 18KgDM/cow/day+ on pasture alone. This means at 18KgDM intakes, the cow would achieve intakes of around 225MJME/day. She would use 65 to 70MJME for live-weight maintenance, leaving 160MJME for production. It takes around 5.5MJME to produce a litre of milk at 8-8.2% fat and protein so 160MJME divided by is 29 litres or 2.3 to 2.4KgMS/cow/day.
If you have left high residuals in the previous rotation or tend to graze grass when it has got beyond 3000KgDM/Ha (1500KgDM/Ha available) then the digestibility of the grass will reduce which limits the energy in the plant as well as the volume the cow is able to consume. This may be only a minor difference of then consuming 17.5KgDM at 12MJME/KgDM, or, as is often the case of the farmers feeding high levels of meal, further deterioration of the grass quality limits the digestibility limits intakes to 16.5-17KgDM/cow at 11 to 11.5MJME/KgDM.
17.5KgDM at 12MJME is 210MJME, minus 65MJME for LW = 145MJME = 26.4 litres
17KgDM at 11.5MJME is 200MJME, minus 65MJME for LW = 131MJME = 23.8 litres
As you can see, the calculation looks minor but the consequences are huge, the cows eating 17KgDM at 11.5MJME/KgDM now need to be fed 4Kg of meal/cow/day just to get them to the same production as the cows eating the well managed pasture with no meal at all!!
The other massive influencing factor is substitution. If it wasn’t for substitution then you could feed the cows as much as you like, they would eat the grass and the meal you fed would go directly to production. Using the above figures to produce milk, if the cow has already maintained her LW then every Kg of meal at 12MJME/Kg+ would produce another 2 litres+ but this is never the case, the reason being substitution.
For every Kg of meal a cow eats, she will eat a certain amount less grass. Research would suggest that the average cow will have around a 10 to 20% substitution rate for the first Kg of meal, around 50% for the second, 80 to 90% for the third and 90%+ for every Kg thereafter. This means that for the 4th Kg of meal fed at 25 cents/Kg, the cow will eat 0.9KgDM+ less grass (which should come at a cost of around a quarter of the cost of the meal)
Not only that, the more meal you feed, the more difficult it becomes to achieve target pasture residuals as appetite is suppressed by the meal. This means that you now run the risk of lower quality pasture in the next rotation through feeding meal which is a cost to production.
Ultimately you have now spent money on meal to result in costing you money in lost production, unless you now feed more meal to compensate which is what happens in many of the high feeding rate situations. No wonder you don’t believe in the benefits of grass anymore as the production potential from the lower digestibility/MJME grass is limited, you just need to understand that this is as a result of management, not the potential of grass.
If you have enough grass and are able to get good utilisation grazing it, there is no reason to be feeding more than 2Kg/cow meal for optimum profitability, only reason is to chase output but we have all heard the saying; “production is vanity, profit is sanity”!!
Some myths;
• In wet weather cows need more meal to compensate for the lower DM in the grass
My view; Grass doesn’t magically have a substantial drop in DM% when it rains. If you put a leafy salad in a bowl and then sprinkled water all over it, the leafy salad is still the same DM but the overall dish is now a lower DM due to the water included. Grass is much the same, the cows will take in more water with the grass in wet weather but as a rule they need to take in at least 3 litres of water for every litre of milk produced, they now just need to do fewer trips to the drinking trough to get this intake. The only reason you may need to offer more meal in wet weather would be if utilisation of grass drops due to treading or smearing mud over the grass which lowers grass intakes.
• Holstein cows need high levels of meal or they’ll lose too much weight/not produce/not get in-calf
My view; Holstein cows are at risk of having an energy deficit in early lactation called adipose tissue mobilisation. The higher the diet protein %, the greater the issue. You would get better results feeding 3Kg/cow high energy, low protein ration then you would if you feed 6Kg/cow 18% “fancy name nut”, it is more about balancing what’s in surplus in the grass then to add extra to it.
• I need to feed 4Kg of meal to get “full rate” of magnesium into the cows
My view; What is full rate? Most farmers don’t seem to know what the actual requirements are but just go with what the feed rep tells them. Get a blend of straights mixed with enough Mg to fulfil requirements. If you want to supplement 80g/cow/day, get 40g of Mg/Kg mixed in. Alternatively, find another way to get Mg into the cows that is more economic.
• I need to feed some meal to get the cows to come into the parlour
My view; In most cases, cows are more settled after a week with no meal than for those that feed a Kg or so/cow. Cows are creatures of habit. Break the habit.
So, in a nutshell, long covers, substitution and feed/mineral/machinery sales reps are the devil…..let them tempt you not.
Be profitable and enjoy farming
lazy farmer
Member
- Location
- som/dor border
just struggling to get 5kgs of DM grass into them at the moment 
Good wkend coming up....just struggling to get 5kgs of DM grass into them at the moment
@Beef farmer I hear you might be joining our group?
New to me.
lazy farmer
Member
- Location
- som/dor border
that's good maybe we'll get up to 6 kgs.............................
Ever the optimist
happycows
Member
- Location
- North Devon Cornwall border
Not best picture. Doesn't normally look so arched back..
Yours a bought Bull?? Or out of a cow you bought??
Headless chicken
Member
- Location
- West Wales
He's a looker. The one in the picture behind is a clio son( Simmental) out of one of our fleckviehs. I have kept 4 of them this year. One a Danish red and 3 sims out of flecks. I try to give them dominating names like titan or red thunder so ofcourse we have one called fluffy
Headless chicken
Member
- Location
- West Wales
I'm guessing he's out of one of yours? How old is he? Big lad behaving himself
happycows
Member
- Location
- North Devon Cornwall border
He's out of one of the heifers i imported last year. He's 10 months now but this was taken 6 weeks ago. His dam has just gone dry and did 7177 litres @ 4.11bf 3.65 ptn in 270 days!! Fertile girl.... Shame really as she was still doing over 20 at dry off. Sire is GS Vox. He's fairly tall and quite Dairy like.
He's called asshole 2!! He hated being on his own. He's in with 2 heifers now and much more settled.i will have to estrumate them in 2 weeks when they go out now although I'm not 100% sure they've been caught.
He's called asshole 2!! He hated being on his own. He's in with 2 heifers now and much more settled.i will have to estrumate them in 2 weeks when they go out now although I'm not 100% sure they've been caught.
dinderleat
Member
- Location
- Wells
Depends how you quantify profit? per ha, per litre, per man hour or per cow.
William Mellor
Member
- Location
- Peak District
Any guesses for what numbers have been branded in these?
Cows getting eager to go out to grass but could really do with bulking up a bit for them. but glad I've now got those branded that hadnt got one before as they were really annoying me
Still a bit dark. Cows on the way down the track
