An interesting piece from the BBC Future Planet section on the importance of death in a natural environment

[Farmer Roy]

Just kill the cûûnt as quickly & humanley as possible, & let nature take care of the carcass

FFS

 

[crofteress]

Anybody can purchase a stun gun and a sharp knife. If you breed livestock then you are responsible for the lives you have created, In my opinion you should also be capable of taking responsibility for their deaths.

We can still bury here, but many flocks are run on extensive hill ground where animals may die and occasionally their carcasses are not found for some time. Also the hills are home to red deer, whose carcasses can sometimes be stumbled upon. Whilst burying or leaving on the surface may both end up with the entire carcass eventually returning to the soil. I know which scenario is the quickest and most beneficial to the wider flora and fauna.

got that. I wouldn't have livestock if I didn't have someone I could call on to shoot them in a hurry. No need to be so self righteous about it
dead sheep lying around and dead deer lying around no problem, . Big continental cows don't think the tourists would like the smell after a few days in this heat. Under the ground

 

[Guleesh]

got that. I wouldn't have livestock if I didn't have someone I could call on to shoot them in a hurry. No need to be so self righteous about it

Haha, your own post is self righteous, and anyway what about the time you're wasting on the phone and waiting for somebody to go get their gun out of the gun cabinet and come over to you? I suppose the poor animal is just needlessly suffering during this time?

 

[crofteress]

f**k off . I’m probably up before you in the morning checking my cows so you know sweet f all about how I look after mine . A damn site better than what I’ve seen over in Skye anyway

Haha, your own post is self righteous, and anyway what about the time you're wasting on the phone and waiting for somebody to go get their gun out of the gun cabinet and come over to you? I suppose the poor animal is just needlessly suffering during this time?

 

[Blaithin]

If we left more dead sheep around then the predators may leave more of the wildlife alone.

Really depends where you leave them… and how many are dying. Dead pits here are away from the farm. They pull in the predators so you don’t want them located near the livestock. The easiest way to avoid conflict with predators is to not bait them onto your property/close to your livestock. Don’t leave out food or garbage as attractants.

I would also be skeptical that UK farmers would be that game to have a dead pit, especially in certain areas, since that’s bound to attract a lot of badger activity.

 

[Guleesh]

f**k off . I’m probably up before you in the morning checking my cows so you know sweet f all about how I look after mine . A damn site better than what I’ve seen over in Skye anyway

Now that is hilarious, you call me self righteous and then come out with this.

 

[puppet]

We don't worry about attracting predators as they are already here. Our burial pit was right in the middle of the farm. The difference with you is that we don't have animals which are going to eat us or livestock apart from some lambs. Badgers are all around. Buzzards, foxes and crows will soon pick the flesh off a dead sheep but we are not allowed to leave them lying about although on hill ground they may not be easily spotted.

 

[Blaithin]

We don't worry about attracting predators as they are already here. Our burial pit was right in the middle of the farm. The difference with you is that we don't have animals which are going to eat us or livestock apart from some lambs. Badgers are all around. Buzzards, foxes and crows will soon pick the flesh off a dead sheep but we are not allowed to leave them lying about although on hill ground they may not be easily spotted.

There are predators here…. The coyotes have a path they and my dogs mark all down the road. They know every access hole through the fence into the yard.

However they have no real motivation to try and outsmart the dogs and come in the yard because carcasses are not left lying around. Large carcasses are removed farther away.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I would expect a canine of below average intelligence would find a carcase from several miles away if it was hungry. Suggesting you can control their range or behaviour by where you leave the odd dead animal is a bit optimistic to say the least.

Have you ever noticed how quickly flies turn up on a bit of fresh dung, even in the desert?

Nature doesn't do waste. Everything gets eaten by something.

 

[Blaithin]

I would expect a canine of below average intelligence would find a carcase from several miles away if it was hungry. Suggesting you can control their range or behaviour by where you leave the odd dead animal is a bit optimistic to say the least.

Have you ever noticed how quickly flies turn up on a bit of fresh dung, even in the desert?

Nature doesn't do waste. Everything gets eaten by something.

It’s not controlling their range. As I just said, they’re right here. It’s controlling where they think there’s easy food. Yes, you are trying to manipulate their behaviour.

I don’t want skunks in my yard. I don’t leave garbage and kibble laying around. Two big skunk attractants. If they have no reason to come in, they’re less likely to come in.

Any UK tourists been to Banff? Ever notice all garbage bins are locking? And all houses have to take household garbage to the locking bins, there is no leaving garbage on the street for the garbage truck to pick up. This is to lower attractants for bears.

Similarly highways will remove dead animals from the roads and move them a distance away from the road allowance. This lowers the chance of casualties for the scavengers because they will be attracted in higher numbers and increase their risk of getting hit.

This is also why it’s recommended to make sure poultry are locked up at night. Leave them out and a predator finds them, it’s then a battle to keep the predator out even if the birds are locked up.

Don’t give them a reason to come in the yard or town and get habituated to people/dogs/the farm. Much less conflict in the long run.

Research any predator conflict avoidance and one of the first things they will tell you is don’t give them a reason to come in the first place. Farmers will not have their dead pile in their calving or lambing field for instance. That’s asking for extra trouble.

If you think leaving easy food around won’t bring animals in closer, and more of them, and get them habituated so that they cause more issues, then go leave some bones laying around during lambing. See what field has high mortality, the field with bones or the fields without.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

It’s not controlling their range. As I just said, they’re right here. It’s controlling where they think there’s easy food. Yes, you are trying to manipulate their behaviour.

I don’t want skunks in my yard. I don’t leave garbage and kibble laying around. Two big skunk attractants. If they have no reason to come in, they’re less likely to come in.

Any UK tourists been to Banff? Ever notice all garbage bins are locking? And all houses have to take household garbage to the locking bins, there is no leaving garbage on the street for the garbage truck to pick up. This is to lower attractants for bears.

Similarly highways will remove dead animals from the roads and move them a distance away from the road allowance. This lowers the chance of casualties for the scavengers because they will be attracted in higher numbers and increase their risk of getting hit.

This is also why it’s recommended to make sure poultry are locked up at night. Leave them out and a predator finds them, it’s then a battle to keep the predator out even if the birds are locked up.

Don’t give them a reason to come in the yard or town and get habituated to people/dogs/the farm. Much less conflict in the long run.

Research any predator conflict avoidance and one of the first things they will tell you is don’t give them a reason to come in the first place. Farmers will not have their dead pile in their calving or lambing field for instance. That’s asking for extra trouble.

If you think leaving easy food around won’t bring animals in closer, and more of them, and get them habituated so that they cause more issues, then go leave some bones laying around during lambing. See what field has high mortality, the field with bones or the fields without.

Yes I can see why you wouldn't want to encourage big bears and stuff like that to come anywhere near. I suppose you're effectively making them look for food where you want them to look, as in away from you. I can't believe that means that they stay there though, just that they spend less time where you don't want them rather than no time which is what I infer from your post.

 

[Blaithin]

Yes I can see why you wouldn't want to encourage big bears and stuff like that to come anywhere near. I suppose you're effectively making them look for food where you want them to look, as in away from you. I can't believe that means that they stay there though, just that they spend less time where you don't want them rather than no time which is what I infer from your post.

You will never get “no time”. That would be like having no time of livestock on the wrong side of the fence.

You need to use a variety of methods combined to make livestock prey look like they aren’t worth the effort.

Fencing. Dogs. Deterrents. Not tempting them in with food. Lights. Noise. Culling.

One of these things alone is still fairly ineffective. Especially in the face of a high predator load. Multiples combined and you have a better chance of fewer incidents.

If you have a pile of deadstock in your pasture then your other controls are going to have to be in high gear at all times.

 

[puppet]

I will lose as many lambs to crows, gulls and ravens than foxes. A fox will travel for miles looking for food every night so I don't believe a carcase will attract them any more often. You are not allowed to leave dead stock lying here nor bury them. They all go to the knackery so there is nothing for animals to scavenge. That means they will go for the next available. So you lose your hens the first night you forgot to shut the door and they just Hoover up all the ground nesting birds and their eggs.
That was why I felt some deadstock may help the wildlife. You are not going to have anything else killed by predators here at least until the nutters introduce lynx and wolves.

 

[Blaithin]

More food doesn’t mean less pressure on prey. More food means more predators.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

More food doesn’t mean less pressure on prey. More food means more predators.

True. So does law preventing their control.

 

[egbert]

The removal of carcasses and abolition of on-farm burying was a response to the concern about BSE getting into water supplies.
1. BSE is no longer an issue
2. Most water supplies come from reservoirs in the hills well above most dead stock apart from areas in England which use acquifer
We had a ewe die on a Thursday in the heatwave, no obvious reason for it but by the time knackery came on the Monday it was just a crawling mass of maggots after the crows has started on their share. If we left more dead sheep around then the predators may leave more of the wildlife alone.

round here, the public water supplies are almost exclusively from reservoirs in the hills.
hills grazed extensively with livestock ...that occasionally go by the wayside.
I've known a number of cases where sheep carcases have been left bobbing for days...weeks even.

 

[Kevtherev]

Livestock carcasses left about would only lead to complaints by ramblers and the general public.
Remember topping rushes on a rather untidy farm and finding a dead cow with topper

 

[Ffermer Bach]

round here, the public water supplies are almost exclusively from reservoirs in the hills.
hills grazed extensively with livestock ...that occasionally go by the wayside.
I've known a number of cases where sheep carcases have been left bobbing for days...weeks even.

I am sure I have read that when you get a dead animal in a stream, if you go downstream of the animal by 10' the water is clean again!

 

[MRT]

Derek Gow, the beaver man, has built a ten foot high platform on his farm which he stocks with carcasses. I was reading about this recently, I can't think where, but he gets amazing bird activity and even the odd vulture. Presumably the sky tomb is ok as it won't frighten the ramblers or pass on disease, but you miss out so much of the extra insect interest by not having the carcass interacting with the soil. Makes so much sense to let nature work it's magic with our fallen stock, rather than pay the knacker man to dispose of it. I look forward to a change in the rules...

Diseases absolutely can be transferred from farm to farm via scavenging even from a fancy platform

 

[Blaithin]

True. So does law preventing their control.

I wasn’t aware you had laws preventing their control. You have laws preventing killing them.

In fact, your laws requiring no deadstock kept on site is a control for them. Even if that’s not it’s intended purpose.

More than one way to skin a cat.

It’s a romantic idea on a permaculture level to let dead things stay where they fall and reap their benefits. I’m not sure if you were allowed to practice that it would live up to expectations though. Farmers would be required to manage the carcasses and deal with the ripples they cause.