Are farmers missing a trick with this scheme debacle cos they could sell their own credits !

[banjo]

Now I read this before somewhere and thought what a great idea, tell the welsh government to stick their schemes up their hole and just sell our carbon storage pasture credits in an open market to wealthier businesses looking to store carbon on pasture or whatever and only take the price we want not the price we are told we are going to get off the welsh government.
You could plant any crop you wanted anywhere you wanted cos it’s on your own land and then have all the profit, there would be nothing they could do about it with no restrictions at all Because they have been removed from the whole situation !
you could even plant a cash crop to harvest because they store just as much carbon as trees, pastures and still a business would purchase it in an open market or through a farming collective.
I thought this was a good idea to remove all control over the farm altogether and the welsh government or conservation groups could not do a thing to stop you !

 

[milkloss]

Didn't think pasture carbon had a value?

 

[banjo]

Didn't think pasture carbon had a value?

It doesn’t to the welsh government but in reality it stores just as much carbon as a tree underneath in its roots and that is scientific fact. In fact all grass is is millions of little trees growing instead of one large one, same with all crops if any kind

 

[sgoti]

Now I read this before somewhere and thought what a great idea, tell the welsh government to stick their schemes up their hole and just sell our carbon storage pasture credits in an open market to wealthier businesses looking to store carbon on pasture or whatever and only take the price we want not the price we are told we are going to get off the welsh government.
You could plant any crop you wanted anywhere you wanted cos it’s on your own land and then have all the profit, there would be nothing they could do about it with no restrictions at all Because they have been removed from the whole situation !
you could even plant a cash crop to harvest because they store just as much carbon as trees, pastures and still a business would purchase it in an open market or through a farming collective.
I thought this was a good idea to remove all control over the farm altogether and the welsh government or conservation groups could not do a thing to stop you !

that would't suit Lesley stalin Griffiths with her comunist idioligy

 

[Pistonbroke]

It doesn’t to the welsh government but in reality it stores just as much carbon as a tree underneath in its roots and that is scientific fact. In fact all grass is is millions of little trees growing instead of one large one, same with all crops if any kind

Someone asked about it in the presentation at Builth yesterday and they said that being in SFS doesn't stop carbon trading anyway

 

[T Hectares]

Carbon markets work on additionality
In the Arable markets you establish your baseline, ie what you’ve done in the previous years management with higher N use, intensive cultivations
With different management of less cultivation, cover crops, less N and more OM added you can prove, along with soil testing that your practises have sequestered more carbon and that’s the bit you can trade

With Grassland, esp PP you’ve done the work historically to lock up carbon, to trade carbon you’d have to change management and prove that you’ve sequestered more carbon

And that’s why it’s very difficult with Grassland and why the Arable world has a market and the Grasland PP world hasnt

The carbon market doesn’t care what you’ve done, they care about what extra you can do over and above what you are doing

Edit, that’s not to say it won’t happen in the future, it’s just where the markets are now

 

[Vader]

It doesn’t to the welsh government but in reality it stores just as much carbon as a tree underneath in its roots and that is scientific fact. In fact all grass is is millions of little trees growing instead of one large one, same with all crops if any kind

Temperate grass land stores more spil carbon than temperate forest, so say IPCC and NASA.

 

[banjo]

Someone asked about it in the presentation at Builth yesterday and they said that being in SFS doesn't stop carbon trading anyway

I understand that but remove all government involvement altogether, no ties no stupid rules just x amount from a company wanting to feel better about themselves, Cardiff and all of the net zero cult would be removed from the whole process in one stroke.
the best carbon sequestration storage is from peat so hill farms would no longer take orders from Cardiff and they would be free to do as they want with as much stock as they want and the senedd would have no power to do anything about it.

 

[banjo]

Carbon markets work on additionality
In the Arable markets you establish your baseline, ie what you’ve done in the previous years management with higher N use, intensive cultivations
With different management of less cultivation, cover crops, less N and more OM added you can prove, along with soil testing that your practises have sequestered more carbon and that’s the bit you can trade

With Grassland, esp PP you’ve done the work historically to lock up carbon, to trade carbon you’d have to change management and prove that you’ve sequestered more carbon

And that’s why it’s very difficult with Grassland and why the Arable world has a market and the Grasland PP world hasnt

The carbon market doesn’t care what you’ve done, they care about what extra you can do over and above what you are doing

Edit, that’s not to say it won’t happen in the future, it’s just where the markets are now

I think you are incorrect and science says so as well, pasture stores as much as any tree crop and worldwide the open market would bite our hands off with pasture actually sequestering it faster also.
bypass all the schemes and take back control of your own farm

 

[T Hectares]

I think you are incorrect and science says so as well, pasture stores as much as any tree crop and worldwide the open market would bite our hands off with pasture actually sequestering it faster also.
bypass all the schemes and take back control of your own farm

The science may say so but the carbon markets don’t care what you’ve done, they view it as unless you do more you won’t stop climate change so the markets work on what you do extra
All the Nat cap markets, BNG, NN and Carbon work like this

 

[banjo]

The science may say so but the carbon markets don’t care what you’ve done, they view it as unless you do more you won’t stop climate change so the markets work on what you do extra
All the Nat cap markets, BNG, NN and Carbon work like this

They do now because they are controlled by people who don’t want the pasture, peat, crop farmer to get involved but it’s very simple to prove that peat has the highest carbon sequestration, pasture same as trees, etc and this can all be verified scientifically so it’s just a case of getting a person or trading companies to sell collective of pasture credits fir x amount worldwide.
in reality we are sitting on gold dust and the hottest trading commodity ever cos net zero is being pushed everywhere so why shouldn’t we gain from it.
no trading company would turn you away because it would be a huge stream of new revenue for them to sell in bunches, peatbog would be the highest of all and pasture would be not far off in a well looked after stock farm in wales !
( ps trees and grass grow continuously and do exactly the same as each other so if a tree can be traded so can pasture )

 

[T Hectares]

I did say the carbon markets at the moment

 

[banjo]

I did say the carbon markets at the moment

Totally understand but remember they were selling sub prime mortgages not long ago and it’s no different now so a sure thing like a 1000ha of prime welsh carbon sequestered peat bog or grazing pasture would be snapped up for top dollar !

 

[T Hectares]

They do now because they are controlled by people who don’t want the pasture, peat, crop farmer to get involved but it’s very simple to prove that peat has the highest carbon sequestration, pasture same as trees, etc and this can all be verified scientifically so it’s just a case of getting a person or trading companies to sell collective of pasture credits fir x amount worldwide.
in reality we are sitting on gold dust and the hottest trading commodity ever cos net zero is being pushed everywhere so why shouldn’t we gain from it.
no trading company would turn you away because it would be a huge stream of new revenue for them to sell in bunches, peatbog would be the highest of all and pasture would be not far off in a well looked after stock farm in wales !
( ps trees and grass grow continuously and do exactly the same as each other so if a tree can be traded so can pasture )

Only newly created trees will be traded, existing ones don’t, it’s the same with grassland
It’s all about what you can do extra, Carbon traders don’t care what’s happened in the past as to make improvements you have to do extra not expect to get paid for what’s happened in the past

 

[farmerm]

Carbon trading is the biggest conjob and I hope it bites all that get involved! If i do sequester carbon I am only putting back what 100 years of farming the land has removed not fossil carbon out the back of Taylor Swiths private jet

 

[Yale]

Some research has shown there is no upper limit to carbon sequestration in properly managed permanent pasture.

 

[banjo]

Only newly created trees will be traded, existing ones don’t, it’s the same with grassland
It’s all about what you can do extra, Carbon traders don’t care what’s happened in the past as to make improvements you have to do extra not expect to get paid for what’s happened in the past

Grass creates itself everyday just like tree but it’s in miniature as do all crops and that is a scientific fact that cannot be argued against !

 

[T Hectares]

Grass creates itself everyday just like tree but it’s in miniature as do all crops and that is a scientific fact that cannot be argued against !

Yes, but it’s always done that so if you want to get paid you have to do more otherwise the climate stays the same according to the trading matrix

 

[delilah]

In a previous life I worked in the waste job. Government introduced a scheme called 'packaging recovery notes', putting a cost/value on each tonne of packaging. You recycle a tonne of paper packaging, you can sell a prn to a firm that produces paper packaging. ie it was a forerunner to carbon credits.

Have taken no interest in any of it for many years, so can't say who has made money out of it and whether it has done any environmental good. However have just had a look, 12 months ago a paper prn was £32.16, last week it was £7.68. So, in a word, volatile. And that's a scheme that has been in place for well over 20 years. And whatever it's faults it actually deals in tangible materials. A tonne is a tonne.

I wouldn't be doing any farm budgeting on carbon credits.

 

[onthehoof]

Carbon markets work on additionality
In the Arable markets you establish your baseline, ie what you’ve done in the previous years management with higher N use, intensive cultivations
With different management of less cultivation, cover crops, less N and more OM added you can prove, along with soil testing that your practises have sequestered more carbon and that’s the bit you can trade

With Grassland, esp PP you’ve done the work historically to lock up carbon, to trade carbon you’d have to change management and prove that you’ve sequestered more carbon

And that’s why it’s very difficult with Grassland and why the Arable world has a market and the Grasland PP world hasnt

The carbon market doesn’t care what you’ve done, they care about what extra you can do over and above what you are doing

Edit, that’s not to say it won’t happen in the future, it’s just where the markets are now

I think you're confusing carbon and bng, bng credits have to show a net gain, but carbon credits are a unit that will be able to be traded (eventually) as there isn't really a market as such at the moment because there is no standard reliable way of measuring carbon, whereas there is with bng, once you can accurately measure your carbon units you will be able to sell them to anyone