Are their any other zero till drills (with a similar tine as used on the Amazone Condor drill) available in the uk?

[Warnesworth]

The bushes are exactly why they are such a popular drill worldwide. European drills are built to be thrown away like a Chinese washing machine, the seedhawk can be rebuilt time and time again. I rebushed my 8m last autumn all with genuine parts, new bolts in all the pivots, re sealed all the rams and including labour came to £5000ish

Exactly. My point is that most of the seedhawks I've seen haven't ever been re-bushed, consequently the bush has gone and the hole is now oval and the leg knackered, just for the sake of replacing a bush.

 

[Warnesworth]

of course the drill is important but it should not be the first consideration

for a tine drill the disturbance is related to speed unlike a disc where speed makes much less difference

the lower disturbance tine drills I’ve seen often have a disc ahead of the tine to cut the path and reduce soil boiling up. Vikar maybe worth a look as it has this layout

other than that if a tine is the choice for your soil type then as others have said go wide and slow vs fast and narrow to reduce disturbance

As soon as you put a disc in front of the tine you have immediately compromised the drill by giving it a chance to hairpin. The perfect example of this is the CS. It hairpins as well as any disc drill. Why introduce compromise to a perfectly simple and effective system? You either use a disc drill or a tine drill, not a compromise of both which just brings the downsides of each design into the equation.

 

[Brisel]

...or you just remove the disc when it's not wanted & you've nearly got 2 drills for the price of 1. Many ways to skin the proverbial cat. Every design has its good and bad points.

 

[Warnesworth]

...or you just remove the disc when it's not wanted & you've nearly got 2 drills for the price of 1. Many ways to skin the proverbial cat. Every design has its good and bad points.

No. Because then how do you seed with just the disc, assuming that the tine does the seeding?

 

[Brisel]

No. Because then how do you seed with just the disc, assuming that the tine does the seeding?

You don't. The disc does the cutting that the tine can't. The compromise is hair pinning. If the disc isn't working well, tuck it up out of the way instead of swapping machines & seed over then let the tine do all the work.

 

[DieselRob]

@Warnesworth and @Clive thankyou for taking the time to respond to me, even if straight away you both have differing views, I suppose that is the beauty and difficulty of the subject!

Warnesworth i take on board your initial comments re. Tine drill disturbance but a sprinter at 250mm spacing would worry me as I still grow barley and would like to carry on doing so for early entry to stubble turnips/ other grazable covers, fattening sheep is already part of my business. Dale and amazone cayena interest me, research in to the Cayena shows a lot of positive comments on the leading disc, my thoughts on this is you don't run it the full depth of the seeding leg so seed trench hairpinning shouldn't happen as the tine will still remove it? I see your comment later disagrees with this kind of theory.

Clive, wide and slow... on my acreage slow wouldn't be able issue and I aren't in the 250hp on 3m combi drill going like stink group anyway.

Ellis have a amazone cayena in at the moment, approaching 10k acres but very tidy and within a budget I'd consider investing. 16.6cm spacing and 6m wide, but no leading disc, also tines on a fixed frame I'd be worried my land isn't level enough just yet but should I be a bit more bold in decision making and go for something like that. As discussed elsewhere 2nd hand Dale's dont come up very often

 

[Warnesworth]

You don't. The disc does the cutting that the tine can't. The compromise is hair pinning. If the disc isn't working well, tuck it up out of the way instead of swapping machines & seed over then let the tine do all the work.

I beg to differ. If the disc can't seed then you can't have a solely disc drill. You are stuck with a tine drill which won't drill through large biomass covers, with or without a disc.
Look at this video I posted of the condor last year working in a mustard/phacelia cover that had to much biomass for the drill, even if you put a leading disc onto the Condor tine it still would have the same problem of 'balling' around the tine. Sensibly to drill into this sort of biomass or greater you need a disc drill.

 

[Warnesworth]

@Warnesworth and @Clive thankyou for taking the time to respond to me, even if straight away you both have differing views, I suppose that is the beauty and difficulty of the subject!

Warnesworth i take on board your initial comments re. Tine drill disturbance but a sprinter at 250mm spacing would worry me as I still grow barley and would like to carry on doing so for early entry to stubble turnips/ other grazable covers, fattening sheep is already part of my business. Dale and amazone cayena interest me, research in to the Cayena shows a lot of positive comments on the leading disc, my thoughts on this is you don't run it the full depth of the seeding leg so seed trench hairpinning shouldn't happen as the tine will still remove it? I see your comment later disagrees with this kind of theory.

Clive, wide and slow... on my acreage slow wouldn't be able issue and I aren't in the 250hp on 3m combi drill going like stink group anyway.

Ellis have a amazone cayena in at the moment, approaching 10k acres but very tidy and within a budget I'd consider investing. 16.6cm spacing and 6m wide, but no leading disc, also tines on a fixed frame I'd be worried my land isn't level enough just yet but should I be a bit more bold in decision making and go for something like that. As discussed elsewhere 2nd hand Dale's dont come up very often

I am not so sure I am differing with @Clive if you look at what he actually does on his farm. He has a disc drill (avatar) and a tine drill (just about identifiable as a Horsch CO) The CO is on 250mm centres and I believe the Avatar is too (please correct me if I am wrong).
Spring Barley at 250 mm is fine providing you treat it correctly nutritionally to reduce the brackling.

 

[DieselRob]

I am not so sure I am differing with @Clive if you look at what he actually does on his farm. He has a disc drill (avatar) and a tine drill (just about identifiable as a Horsch CO) The CO is on 250mm centres and I believe the Avatar is too (please correct me if I am wrong).
Spring Barley at 250 mm is fine providing you treat it correctly nutritionally to reduce the brackling.

Yes, sorry my comment was very clear, I was referring to opinions of the leading disc on a tine drill

 

[clbarclay]

I think the effectiveness of leading discs will definitely depend on conditions at drilling. I had a simtech demo which was right on the limits of blocking and left lumps at the headlands. At the time I reckoned the ground was too soft for the leading discs to cut tough branching stems against so the tines could pass between them.

I would like to test an Amazone Primera in those conditions. No leading discs, but a relativerly large toothed depth wheel right behind the points. I have heard one account where the user said they just pulled any trash past the points if it started to build up. I have a very similar effect on my tine drill which has frame depth wheels in amongst the tines, deliberately positioned just behind the line of the points. When it has blocked with trash it has been around the tines without the wheels near them.

 

[Brisel]

I think the effectiveness of leading discs will definitely depend on conditions at drilling. I had a simtech demo which was right on the limits of blocking and left lumps at the headlands. At the time I reckoned the ground was too soft for the leading discs to cut tough branching stems against so the tines could pass between them.

I would like to test an Amazone Primera in those conditions. No leading discs, but a relativerly large toothed depth wheel right behind the points. I have heard one account where the user said they just pulled any trash past the points if it started to build up. I have a very similar effect on my tine drill which has frame depth wheels in amongst the tines, deliberately positioned just behind the line of the points. When it has blocked with trash it has been around the tines without the wheels near them.

What do you do for slot closure behind that please?

 

[clbarclay]

On the subject of disturbance though, even a very narrow point can create a V of disturbance. There has been quite a big visible difference between the field I drilled beans in with the GD this spring and the fields which I used that tine drill in.

 

[clbarclay]

What do you do for slot closure behind that please?

That is one headache I have not solved yet and just removed the last attempt at a following harrow before drilling this spring, which used KV TS harrow tines and did very little. By far the best slot closure had been from a separate pass with a stubble rake, across the direction of drilling.

 

[Brisel]

That is one headache I have not solved yet and just removed the last attempt at a following harrow before drilling this spring, which used KV TS harrow tines and did very little. By far the best slot closure had been from a separate pass with a stubble rake, across the direction of drilling.

Youd struggle to get the kind if residues from the Condor drill video through my Claydon - they usually block up at the back. Do the TS harrow tines look like these S tines? Seed coverage with a tine drill has always been one of my concerns with that design. If you move soil away, you've got to get it back.

You almost need a set of these discs, as fitted to a Horsch Sprinter:

 

[clbarclay]

These are the type I was using, they struggled to move much if any soil back over open slots though.

I am thinking of just trying a lot of straight tines spread over multiple rows, akin to the stubble rake. I doubt they will be as good as raking across the slots, but at least I can make sure they all run in between the slots. Another alternative may be to try cultivator drag tines, which are similar principal to the TS harrow tines, but with a 60 or 70 mm tall strip of steel trying to move the loose soil across rather than a 10mm bar.

 

[l'ordinary bonville]

It's nice to see youtube videos of drills working away in various conditions. It would be even nicer to see the crops they produce afterwards through establishment to meeting in the rows

 

[fudge]

The Redekop seems to be the best on the market at the moment. Claas can add automatic wind compensation to their spreaders as an optional extra on the bigger Lexions. Still no blimming use if the combine driver stops or the spreaders aren't set right. Harvest spring barley when it's a bit damp or green and no chopper will do a good job on it. This is why I own a straw rake.

The answer is to cut higher and leave the stubble standing but it's hard to do when the crop has brackled over and you need to shave the ground to get all the ears. Stripper headers have horrendous losses which is why they never really caught on.

Er after a brackled crop why not remove the straw? Seems obvious.

 

[Brisel]

Er after a brackled crop why not remove the straw? Seems obvious.

I usually do but don’t want to keep selling straw. It risks importing weeds and removes potash and organic matter. It also slows following operations if it rains or they can't get balers & lorries here quickly.

 

[Brisel]

These are the type I was using, they struggled to move much if any soil back over open slots though.

I am thinking of just trying a lot of straight tines spread over multiple rows, akin to the stubble rake. I doubt they will be as good as raking across the slots, but at least I can make sure they all run in between the slots. Another alternative may be to try cultivator drag tines, which are similar principal to the TS harrow tines, but with a 60 or 70 mm tall strip of steel trying to move the loose soil across rather than a 10mm bar.

The vertical tines fitted to the back of Horsch Sprinter/CO seem to do a good job but I’ve never seen one working close up to know how they handle high levels of residues.

 

[Grass And Grain]

I have a very similar effect on my tine drill which has frame depth wheels in amongst the tines, deliberately positioned just behind the line of the points. When it has blocked with trash it has been around the tines without the wheels near them.

Did you make that drill yourself? I like it, especially if you can get the slot closure sorted.