Are you BAME, LBGT, a new entrant from the city, a young farmer or just a bit odd?

[Daniel Larn]

It's worth remembering that this supposed "farming community" doesn't really exist, at least round here it doesn't. I don't socialise with any other farmers apart from one who shares a passion for local history and detecting, and we never talk farming when we meet.
All the other folks I know cover a broad spectrum of interests and jobs and backgrounds, yet all consider themselves part of the Local community. If there are any bigoted old farmers still around, they are the ones needing help due to their isolation.
The local horse folks, who make up a large part of the rural population, might sometimes get bitchy amongst themselves rolleyes but I have never noticed any racism or sexism due to peoples' colour or sexuality and all sorts of different relationships and arrangements are in evidence.
Maybe effort should be put into convincing those who feel threatened that this sexist,racist community is, in fact, largely an illusion.
This is demonstrated by the reaction one hears to stories about "factory farming" or "pesticide poisoning" in the media. Invariably, local people and friends say "Oh, that's not happening round here, our farms are smaller like Fred's, but it happens somewhere else, ie "The East", on big farms "up country", in Europe or America or anywhere but in our rural corner.

The agricultural 'community' is just the people who are involved in the industry, it doesn't mean we all go to parties or know each other's family history.

And the people who you want to help, that see us as being tweed-clad bigots in flat caps, are exactly who this group is trying to help.

 

[unlacedgecko]

The agricultural 'community' is just the people who are involved in the industry, it doesn't mean we all go to parties or know each other's family history.

And the people who you want to help, that see us as being tweed-clad bigots in flat caps, are exactly who this group is trying to help.

I did wonder where my ag community party invites were when I became a shepherd. Maybe they got lost in the post?

 

[Danllan]

That's not what the OP is saying either though is it? He's saying how others may feel and researching on that

To what end?

It kind of does, I agree, but the division is there already.

What this project is trying to do is provide a space, somewhere between the cultural/community groups these people feel a part of already, and the agricultural community.

As someone inside the industry, I have mixed feelings about it. I understand that not all farmers are the same, but I know plenty who are still VERY conservative.

Whether you like it or not, the perception of farmers to most city folk is that they are old, rich and probably racist, sexist and ageist. So offering a more approachable face to get people through the door is no bad thing is it?

You seem to be either insulting those who fit that description, or are using it as a pejorative code. This intrigues me, which and why?

 

[JP1]

To what end?

Who knows? Why worry?

 

[Daniel]

To what end?



You seem to be either insulting those who fit that description, or are using it as a pejorative code. This intrigues me, which and why?

Have you not realised? Tolerance is only to be shown to liberals. Conservatives deserve everything they get.

 

[Daniel Larn]

To what end?



You seem to be either insulting those who fit that description, or are using it as a pejorative code. This intrigues me, which and why?

It wasn't supposed to be insulting, or pejorative, I was simply pointing out that there are people whose views are very conservative.

Are they right or wrong, it doesn't matter, that's not what I am wanting to address with my comment.

It is that perception that farmers are conservative that puts people off, which is a shame.

Again I have had discussions on this forum, and face to face, where I have been treated with contempt because of my age or my opinion. In fairness though, I have also received a fair amount of praise on bringing some new ideas and a different perspective, and I see the agricultural 'community' as being largely friendly.

...Though, it's not me this group is aimed at.

 

[Red Fred]

The agricultural 'community' is just the people who are involved in the industry, it doesn't mean we all go to parties or know each other's family history.
.

I would say that agriculture is not really a community at all, then. It is an industry. If I made a statement such as "a certain community is knowingly harbouring terrorists", I would rightly be hauled up and told that this idea is divisive and that there is no community as such, just a number of people with different opinions who happen to come from the same country. The idea of "community" to me conjours up images of places where people DO socialise and know each others' family trees, such as "mining communities" or "Amish communities" or "Rudolf Steiner communities". The whole idea is unhelpful in this context.
My sister at Oxford, and an old college friend in Kent, both work on very large farms owned by families originally from Asia. The owners are as much farmers as many of the TFF members and have day-to-day input into the management of their farms, but because they don't dress in farm-boy uniform, and instead stick to their own cultural preferences, I don't suppose they are seen as "farmers."

 

[Daniel Larn]

Have you not realised? Tolerance is only to be shown to liberals. Conservatives deserve everything they get.

I would consider myself very liberal, and part of that is allowing people to be conservative. I only take umbrige when people decide to try and push their views onto others.

I think I've probably been bothered by, and subsequently told where to go, more liberal Muppets than conservative ones.

Conservative type folks don't tend to feel they have the 'moral superiority' of the liberal crowd, which tends to make them more annoying.

It doesn't stop me arguing my corner if I feel like it though.

 

[Daniel Larn]

I would say that agriculture is not really a community at all, then. It is an industry. If I made a statement such as "a certain community is knowingly harbouring terrorists", I would rightly be hauled up and told that this idea is divisive and that there is no community as such, just a number of people with different opinions who happen to come from the same country. The idea of "community" to me conjours up images of places where people DO socialise and know each others' family trees, such as "mining communities" or "Amish communities" or "Rudolf Steiner communities". The whole idea is unhelpful in this context.
My sister at Oxford, and an old college friend in Kent, both work on very large farms owned by families originally from Asia. The owners are as much farmers as many of the TFF members and have day-to-day input into the management of their farms, but because they don't dress in farm-boy uniform, and instead stick to their own cultural preferences, I don't suppose they are seen as "farmers."

That's a fair point, and for sure there are some 'diverse' (non-stereotypical farmer) people in farming already.

The word community is open to interpretation, but I think it's appropriate in this context. You could argue that this forum is a community, as a community is defined as being;

a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.

 

[Storeman]

What amazes me, is the fact that these hand-wringing doo-gooders seem to forget that this is still a majority white country. So the minorites are, er, well, in a minority.

 

[mikehankin]

Thank you so much for your comments.

You're right I have started a number of threads looking at a similar (but subtly different) issues.

It's great to get everyone's feedback and very revealing to see what a portion of the agricultural community feel about this issue.

In my view (and bear in mind this is definitely from and 'outside' perspective) what is happening in the farming industries on the whole is a scandal. Fewer that 0.8% of farmers are from non-white ethnic background - farm workers and allied industries don't fair much better at all. Yes there are more that 8.5% minority representation but only around 0.3% are non-white.

This is staggering when you think about the simple fact that everyone, black, white, Turkish - whatever, buy food and ultimately support British farming. What's more they are (as we all are) encouraged vociferously to buy British and support our British farmers. But how can people from diverse walks of life be expected to protect what is British if they don't feel it represents them. Much of this is down to the fact that Britain on the whole is not seen as a welcoming environment for people from multicultural backgrounds. And who can blame them? I'm afraid that no, white, straight, British men do not need their own community support group because the vast majority of people in this industry are of this demographic. @Storeman is right, it is a white majority country but around 8% of the houses of parliament and 14% of the general population are from ethnic minorities. 98.6% of farmers are white British.

Despite being an 'outsider' (as in from the city) I A) shouldn't be made to feel like one in rural areas just as the same courtesy is extended to the many thousands of white British rural sons and daughters who migrate to urban areas each year, and B) I am fully aware that farming isn't a community but an industry and one that is represented by a community of farmers.

When rural young people move to London, Leeds, Birmingham etc. who will replenish the jobs that they are leaving behind? Lantra estimated that between 2014 and 2020 the industry will need 595,000 new entrants. Where are they going to come from? Currently it certainly won't be from the cities if the attitude is that 'we don't need them'. What I am trying to do is to see whether I can incorporate a means to encourage those people who need work most (bearing in mind that 23% of black and 29% of Pakistani/Bangladeshi young people are out of work) to feel as though they are welcome in rural industries and environments. Not working to diversify this enormous industry results in tantamount ghettoisation where certain opportunities in certain areas of our country are only for certain people.

Conservatives have just as much right to tolerance as anyone but gay, BAME, urban, disabled, young etc. people have just as much right to live on and work our land and contribute to a food system as anyone else. If the farming industry and its community cannot find a way to open its doors to new entrants from diverse backgrounds then how can it expect to weather a changing political climate or in fact any changes?

I'm glad that this project is becoming such a contentious issue amongst agriculture's online voice. It does wonders for the academic rigour of my project to see how systemic and deep-rooted some of the opinions being expressed are.

I am more than happy to discuss this face to face with anyone interested in helping me develop ways to create a more dynamic, diverse, multi-cultural and enlightened future of the agricultural system or anyone who sorely disagrees.

As far as this thread is concerned, I'm not looking to crowdsource information (although I have gleaned plenty) but rather looking to see if there is anyone from a more diverse background who might be interested in working with me. I was hoping to find people who feel as though they don't have a means to express themselves or feel unwelcome in their rural communities. I'm sure that if there are any of The Farming Forum they have retreated into their shells in light of some of the more abhorrent responses on this thread.

It has however been incredibly insightful to see that my assumptions are indeed correct.

 

[Daniel]

Thank you so much for your comments.

You're right I have started a number of threads looking at a similar (but subtly different) issues.

It's great to get everyone's feedback and very revealing to see what a portion of the agricultural community feel about this issue.

In my view (and bear in mind this is definitely from and 'outside' perspective) what is happening in the farming industries on the whole is a scandal. Fewer that 0.8% of farmers are from non-white ethnic background - farm workers and allied industries don't fair much better at all. Yes there are more that 8.5% minority representation but only around 0.3% are non-white.

This is staggering when you think about the simple fact that everyone, black, white, Turkish - whatever, buy food and ultimately support British farming. What's more they are (as we all are) encouraged vociferously to buy British and support our British farmers. But how can people from diverse walks of life be expected to protect what is British if they don't feel it represents them. Much of this is down to the fact that Britain on the whole is not seen as a welcoming environment for people from multicultural backgrounds. And who can blame them? I'm afraid that no, white, straight, British men do not need their own community support group because the vast majority of people in this industry are of this demographic. @Storeman is right, it is a white majority country but around 8% of the houses of parliament and 14% of the general population are from ethnic minorities. 98.6% of farmers are white British.

Despite being an 'outsider' (as in from the city) I A) shouldn't be made to feel like one in rural areas just as the same courtesy is extended to the many thousands of white British rural sons and daughters who migrate to urban areas each year, and B) I am fully aware that farming isn't a community but an industry and one that is represented by a community of farmers.

When rural young people move to London, Leeds, Birmingham etc. who will replenish the jobs that they are leaving behind? Lantra estimated that between 2014 and 2020 the industry will need 595,000 new entrants. Where are they going to come from? Currently it certainly won't be from the cities if the attitude is that 'we don't need them'. What I am trying to do is to see whether I can incorporate a means to encourage those people who need work most (bearing in mind that 23% of black and 29% of Pakistani/Bangladeshi young people are out of work) to feel as though they are welcome in rural industries and environments. Not working to diversify this enormous industry results in tantamount ghettoisation where certain opportunities in certain areas of our country are only for certain people.

Conservatives have just as much right to tolerance as anyone but gay, BAME, urban, disabled, young etc. people have just as much right to live on and work our land and contribute to a food system as anyone else. If the farming industry and its community cannot find a way to open its doors to new entrants from diverse backgrounds then how can it expect to weather a changing political climate or in fact any changes?

I'm glad that this project is becoming such a contentious issue amongst agriculture's online voice. It does wonders for the academic rigour of my project to see how systemic and deep-rooted some of the opinions being expressed are.

I am more than happy to discuss this face to face with anyone interested in helping me develop ways to create a more dynamic, diverse, multi-cultural and enlightened future of the agricultural system or anyone who sorely disagrees.

As far as this thread is concerned, I'm not looking to crowdsource information (although I have gleaned plenty) but rather looking to see if there is anyone from a more diverse background who might be interested in working with me. I was hoping to find people who feel as though they don't have a means to express themselves or feel unwelcome in their rural communities. I'm sure that if there are any of The Farming Forum they have retreated into their shells in light of some of the more abhorrent responses on this thread.

It has however been incredibly insightful to see that my assumptions are indeed correct.

Brief translation (or TL: DR in youthspeak):

If you don't agree with all my assumptions and pre-concieved ideas you're definitely wrong and probably a bigot.

 

[mikehankin]

Brief translation (or TLR in youthspeak):

If you don't agree with all my assumptions and pre-concieved ideas you're definitely wrong and probably a bigot.

Actually no, you are proving my assumptions and pre-conceived ideas

 

[Storeman]

Brief translation (or TLR in youthspeak):

If you don't agree with all my assumptions and pre-concieved ideas you're definitely wrong and probably a bigot.

To me, this is the liberal way.
Conceive a problem that actually isn't a problem, start to come up with a solution to the non-problem, then hope that their virtue-signalling earns them some brownie points from their fellow liberals the next time they pop out for a soy latte.
And, as you say, everyone else is wrong and a bigot.

 

[JP1]

Thank you so much for your comments.

You're right I have started a number of threads looking at a similar (but subtly different) issues.

It's great to get everyone's feedback and very revealing to see what a portion of the agricultural community feel about this issue.

In my view (and bear in mind this is definitely from and 'outside' perspective) what is happening in the farming industries on the whole is a scandal. Fewer that 0.8% of farmers are from non-white ethnic background - farm workers and allied industries don't fair much better at all. Yes there are more that 8.5% minority representation but only around 0.3% are non-white.

This is staggering when you think about the simple fact that everyone, black, white, Turkish - whatever, buy food and ultimately support British farming. What's more they are (as we all are) encouraged vociferously to buy British and support our British farmers. But how can people from diverse walks of life be expected to protect what is British if they don't feel it represents them. Much of this is down to the fact that Britain on the whole is not seen as a welcoming environment for people from multicultural backgrounds. And who can blame them? I'm afraid that no, white, straight, British men do not need their own community support group because the vast majority of people in this industry are of this demographic. @Storeman is right, it is a white majority country but around 8% of the houses of parliament and 14% of the general population are from ethnic minorities. 98.6% of farmers are white British.

Despite being an 'outsider' (as in from the city) I A) shouldn't be made to feel like one in rural areas just as the same courtesy is extended to the many thousands of white British rural sons and daughters who migrate to urban areas each year, and B) I am fully aware that farming isn't a community but an industry and one that is represented by a community of farmers.

When rural young people move to London, Leeds, Birmingham etc. who will replenish the jobs that they are leaving behind? Lantra estimated that between 2014 and 2020 the industry will need 595,000 new entrants. Where are they going to come from? Currently it certainly won't be from the cities if the attitude is that 'we don't need them'. What I am trying to do is to see whether I can incorporate a means to encourage those people who need work most (bearing in mind that 23% of black and 29% of Pakistani/Bangladeshi young people are out of work) to feel as though they are welcome in rural industries and environments. Not working to diversify this enormous industry results in tantamount ghettoisation where certain opportunities in certain areas of our country are only for certain people.

Conservatives have just as much right to tolerance as anyone but gay, BAME, urban, disabled, young etc. people have just as much right to live on and work our land and contribute to a food system as anyone else. If the farming industry and its community cannot find a way to open its doors to new entrants from diverse backgrounds then how can it expect to weather a changing political climate or in fact any changes?

I'm glad that this project is becoming such a contentious issue amongst agriculture's online voice. It does wonders for the academic rigour of my project to see how systemic and deep-rooted some of the opinions being expressed are.

I am more than happy to discuss this face to face with anyone interested in helping me develop ways to create a more dynamic, diverse, multi-cultural and enlightened future of the agricultural system or anyone who sorely disagrees.

As far as this thread is concerned, I'm not looking to crowdsource information (although I have gleaned plenty) but rather looking to see if there is anyone from a more diverse background who might be interested in working with me. I was hoping to find people who feel as though they don't have a means to express themselves or feel unwelcome in their rural communities. I'm sure that if there are any of The Farming Forum they have retreated into their shells in light of some of the more abhorrent responses on this thread.

It has however been incredibly insightful to see that my assumptions are indeed correct.

Sadly your conclusion before even consulting makes it sound to me like you already had a preconceived idea of what you wanted to hear. That's a shame as I've been supportive of your post and stated aims at the outset.

There are some who positively trade on their diversity - such as The Black Farmer. He makes good sausages but so do many others.

Having travelled nearly all the World , I'm not sure you are right to state some of your conclusions so early. I was hoping you'd look at barriers and how they can be overcome. Many of these would be generic such as land tenure, retirement plans and funding.

 

[Daniel]

Actually no, you are proving my assumptions and pre-conceived ideas

Actually over the last decade I have employed for between 3 months and 2 years aged 18-20:

1 lad who went on to milk cows in Yorkshire

1 lad who is now manager of a pig breeding unit.

1 lad who went on to become a tree surgeon, now police officer.

1 lad who is now a tractor driver for a big carrot firm.

1 girl who is still at Harper with a job lined up on a pig unit.

I've also given weeks work experience to several students, mainly girls training to be vets including 2 this year. Not one of the above had parents active in farming. There have been other students from Harper etc on placement.

This from a small farm with 2.5 employees.

Thus I would suggest your assumptions are entirely wrong and that we're doing pretty well in attracting outsiders to the industry.

Which was exactly my point in my first post. I need good attitude, a willingness to get stuck in and some energy. I don't need people who identify as victims.

 

[mikehankin]

I'm not actually making any assumptions. I'm just trying to stand up for a different group of people and raise a slightly alternative point.

 

[JP1]

I'm not actually making any assumptions. I'm just trying to stand up for a different group of people and raise a slightly alternative point.

Then you're not helping your cause! I know one Sikh farmer, one farmer from Pakistan , several gay farmers . Bit you didn't ask or PM

I don't think you've achieved anything thus far except alienate a community that could have helped answer questions in a positive and open way

 

[Daniel Larn]

From these responses I think the problem is perhaps different.

We know that the community is probably not as exclusive as it's made out to be, and is arguably very inclusive, due to the fact that you can be successful based on work ethic alone rather than anything academic.

However, agriculture as an industry has an image problem and people are more disconnected from food and farming than ever before.

Whatever Mike is trying to address is a part of that wider issue. This isn't about forcing more diversity on farming, but about making farming more accessible and extending the opportunity to discover the industry to a new group of people.

I think maybe both sides of this debate are probably coming at it from the wrong angle.

 

[Danllan]

...Conservative type folks don't tend to feel they have the 'moral superiority' of the liberal crowd, which tends to make them more annoying...

That doesn't scan for me, do you mean to say that the self-righteous liberals are more annoying? If so, quite right. But... the thing is, in the classical 'John Locke' sense, I am a liberal. I believe in, practice and can expound upon the Social Contract and Natural Law (i.e. basic rights) far more than many who would vote Liberal or for the left, yet I would generally be labelled as fairly far to the right in many matters by these same people. Odd, isn't it?

Thank you so much for your comments.
..

In my view* (and bear in mind this is definitely from and 'outside' perspective) what is happening in the farming industries on the whole is a scandal. Fewer that 0.8% of farmers are from non-white ethnic background - farm workers and allied industries don't fair much better at all. Yes there are more that 8.5% minority representation but only around 0.3% are non-white.

This is staggering...

No, it isn't. It would be if they had been here for millennia as our forefather were; but that isn't the case, most have been here for a few decades, many for far less time. A large proportion, perhaps / probably, a majority of farms are inherited, this clearly makes BAMEs (!) even less likely to be involved - but I know of several homosexual / lesbian farmers who are quite happy with their other halves and their lives. Lots of disabled farmers too, but if you mentioned them I apologise for having missed it.

In any case, so what? As has already been said by others, they are just people, get it?

This whole thing smacks of either trolling or nauseating, lefty 'virtue-flagging'... yuck.

*I have tried not to write the following but the temptation has just proven to be too great... It is going to be very hard for any of us to share your view, simply because there isn't going to be room to fit our heads up your ars*hole too . (Acknowledgements and apologies to Goldie Lookin Chain )