Beginner question on permaculture and regulations

[egbert]

fair points. I'm just taking the view of having people feed off their own land and having the freedom to build their own homes on said land. That's important imho. That's not the same as just selling farmland for large scale property development (where profits will be split across the land seller, property developers and councils via stamp duty). Funny how the vast majority of these newbuilds end up being built by listed companies close to the govt (like Barratt)

I can see what you want, and wasn't talking about mass development.
(that's another matter, and ministers who accept cash from developers should be boiled alive. I'll stoke the fire)

I, for one, am glad there is still some check, otherwise every land sale would be split down into 5-10 acre plots so folks like yourself could build your dream home.
What a nightmare scenario...the end of properly rural England.

 

[ultraG]

I can see what you want, and wasn't talking about mass development.
(that's another matter, and ministers who accept cash from developers should be boiled alive. I'll stoke the fire)

I, for one, am glad there is still some check, otherwise every land sale would be split down into 5-10 acre plots so folks like yourself could build your dream home.
What a nightmare scenario...the end of properly rural England.

I understand. And it's an interesting debate. But why does rural mean large acreage? If you go through the centuries I wonder if farms always had to be that big to sustain themselves... Obviously mechanisation and chemistry changed things. Just saying... Why can't the people run permaculture for their own benefit? Permaculture does not change the environment. On the contrary, it let's the ecosystem take over and we the people get to eat what we can harvest. Technically a family doesn't need more than 2-3 acres.... Look at the EU farmers (and yourselves I suspect). Isn't it the case that farmers are led to run large farms in the name of productivity, pushing you to leverage yourself financially, rely on chemicals, suffer inflation on your inputs, suffer pseudo net zero rules while on the other hand the market is keeping your prices low thus killing your profitability? I get that we had to feed the people after ww2. But how far does this go? I keep thinking about this French farmer blocking the highway and saying that at 60yo he can either continue to farm his 130 hectares for a profit of 1000 euros a month or take a state pension of 800 euros. I kept thinking he should tell the govt and the market to f off, deleverage and run a permaculture to feed his fam and friends on whatever land he can own net of debt.... Just a thought...

 

[Bogweevil]

I have yet to see a convincing permaculture establishment, so I doubt it would qualify for an eventual dwelling in the way that an organic market garden might (for example).

There is a permaculture association: https://www.permaculture.org.uk/

 

[egbert]

I understand. And it's an interesting debate. But why does rural mean large acreage? If you go through the centuries I wonder if farms always had to be that big to sustain themselves... Obviously mechanisation and chemistry changed things. Just saying... Why can't the people run permaculture for their own benefit? Permaculture does not change the environment. On the contrary, it let's the ecosystem take over and we the people get to eat what we can harvest. Technically a family doesn't need more than 2-3 acres.... Look at the EU farmers (and yourselves I suspect). Isn't it the case that farmers are led to run large farms in the name of productivity, pushing you to leverage yourself financially, rely on chemicals, suffer inflation on your inputs, suffer pseudo net zero rules while on the other hand the market is keeping your prices low thus killing your profitability? I get that we had to feed the people after ww2. But how far does this go? I keep thinking about this French farmer blocking the highway and saying that at 60yo he can either continue to farm his 130 hectares for a profit of 1000 euros a month or take a state pension of 800 euros. I kept thinking he should tell the govt and the market to f off, deleverage and run a permaculture to feed his fam and friends on whatever land he can own net of debt.... Just a thought...

There is so much you say that I disagree with that I don't know where to start.

Your understanding of why farms in the UK and elsewhere have grown is pants, just as is your understanding of why some EU countries have managed to protect their smallest farms.
If Permaculture was worth a spit, don't you think we'd all be doing it already?
If it works for you, it works for you.


But most of all, you gave the game away in your first post. 'I want to build a second home as a farm'.
Yeah, don't we all.

I don't mean to be unkind, but your idea of abusing the ag-tie system is just that. An abuse.

 

[ultraG]

There is so much you say that I disagree with that I don't know where to start.

Your understanding of why farms in the UK and elsewhere have grown is pants, just as is your understanding of why some EU countries have managed to protect their smallest farms.
If Permaculture was worth a spit, don't you think we'd all be doing it already?
If it works for you, it works for you.


But most of all, you gave the game away in your first post. 'I want to build a second home as a farm'.
Yeah, don't we all.

I don't mean to be unkind, but your idea of abusing the ag-tie system is just that. An abuse.

Please explain what is abusive about it

 

[ultraG]

Please explain what is abusive about it

PS am not excluding the option to make it my only home in the long term. Just not right away

 

[anzani]

Assuming that you are serious, @ultraG, and not a traffic generator bot, your best option would be to seek a house you like/can afford with attached/adjacent acreage or a walled garden and meet your ideals in that way. You will find less aggravation/cultural hostility that way. My original suggestion to you was not to provide a better tan but to move you gently away from ' minefield' scenarios !

 

[ultraG]

Assuming that you are serious, @ultraG, and not a traffic generator bot, your best option would be to seek a house you like/can afford with attached/adjacent acreage or a walled garden and meet your ideals in that way. You will find less aggravation/cultural hostility that way. My original suggestion to you was not to provide a better tan but to move you gently away from ' minefield' scenarios !

No bot here and thx for the advice, I can see the reasoning behind it!

 

[anzani]

Your 'starter for ten'

Check out this 5 bedroom detached house for sale on Rightmove

5 bedroom detached house for sale in Market Street, Fordham, CB7 for £1,250,000. Marketed by Keeleys, Ely

www.rightmove.co.uk

(No vested interest)

 

[ultraG]

Your 'starter for ten'

Check out this 5 bedroom detached house for sale on Rightmove

5 bedroom detached house for sale in Market Street, Fordham, CB7 for £1,250,000. Marketed by Keeleys, Ely

www.rightmove.co.uk

(No vested interest)

Way way way beyond my means (by a factor of 6!)

 

[anzani]

Way way way beyond my means (by a factor of 6!)

Q.E.D

 

[Kidds]

Alternatively I could really just limit myself to a smaller chunk of land and focus only on growing without a dwelling, just a barn...

This is your answer and you don't even need the barn. Securing your own food supply is very sensible but without a hands on approach it will not succeed, if it worked like that there wouldn't be any need for farmers at all.
Skip the bit where you want to build on the land and you'll do fine. Not everyone can build a house, it would be ridiculous if they tried but you do have every opportunity to build a home. Work on that bit.

 

[ultraG]

This is your answer and you don't even need the barn. Securing your own food supply is very sensible but without a hands on approach it will not succeed, if it worked like that there wouldn't be any need for farmers at all.
Skip the bit where you want to build on the land and you'll do fine. Not everyone can build a house, it would be ridiculous if they tried but you do have every opportunity to build a home. Work on that bit.

Yeah man I'm seeing this. Thanks for the support. Am basically thinking of buying an orchard as a starting point. I have a family stake on arable land that am cashing out of for complicated reasons (let's call it a settlement to put it mildly). Should net me around +/- 200k... will definitely look at that solution and yes, definitely will roll up the sleeves!!!

 

[egbert]

Please explain what is abusive about it

You seem to be trying to get a cheap house in its own grounds, which will create a massive value uplift.
The planning 'loophole' you're seemingly trying to use is there for good reason, but has been mucho abused in recent years, to the extent that, but for the 'shortage' of housing stock, I suspect would be shut down altogether.
By your own admission -it appears- you're seeking to find ways round the criteria.
(many of us could point you toward shortcuts, but I notice no-one is)

I don't hold it against you- who doesn't want to feather their own metaphoric nest. But admit it for what it is.....an abuse of the system.

 

[ultraG]

You seem to be trying to get a cheap house in its own grounds, which will create a massive value uplift.
The planning 'loophole' you're seemingly trying to use is there for good reason, but has been mucho abused in recent years, to the extent that, but for the 'shortage' of housing stock, I suspect would be shut down altogether.
By your own admission -it appears- you're seeking to find ways round the criteria.
(many of us could point you toward shortcuts, but I notice no-one is)

I don't hold it against you- who doesn't want to feather their own metaphoric nest. But admit it for what it is.....an abuse of the system.

I understand how this may look like, and indeed, of course, should I ever be able to convert a barn into a dwelling there's a considerable uplift (many farmers that I know of have done this / like I said, I come from a farming family), but again, the plan is very much focused on food resilience as a numero uno priority. Should I like the land a lot, after some years of sweat and tears, who's to say I wouldn't mind living on it? Who's to say it would be unfair to live on the land that I farm for mine and my family's sustenance? Isn't that what life is really all about after all? What's the point of making money if you're not gonna have any connection with the land. Everything we eat comes from the land. We literally are what we eat. Like I said at the start, I know the value of land. Anyway, it's worth a shot, even if the chances are slim. Worse case scenario, I still have a productive land which is a very nice asset to have.

 

[curlietailz]

Yeah man I'm seeing this. Thanks for the support. Am basically thinking of buying an orchard as a starting point. I have a family stake on arable land that am cashing out of for complicated reasons (let's call it a settlement to put it mildly). Should net me around +/- 200k... will definitely look at that solution and yes, definitely will roll up the sleeves!!!

So you already own a stake in some land
Why not take your share in acreage instead of cash?

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Growing food and permaculture are sensible ambitions. Trying to get pp on agricultural land, less so. Neither are farming and pp for a dwelling interdependent.

My advice would be to concentrate on one or the other, or compete with the super rich for a house with a bit of land for sale.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I, for one, am glad there is still some check, otherwise every land sale would be split down into 5-10 acre plots so folks like yourself could build your dream home.
What a nightmare scenario...the end of properly rural England.

Not necessarily. Most plots would have a hedge round the perimeter.

 

[delilah]

Some of you need to speak up. I can't hear you. On account of all the clattering of ladders being pulled up.

For 'green and pleasant' , read 'empty'. The valley I grew up in was, until yesterday in the scheme of things, a hive of activity. From charcoal burning to iron smelting. From saltway to canal to railway. Mills in all their forms. The river ran all the colours of the rainbow. Hundreds of jobs in one small valley.

The Enclosures and the Industrial Revolution put paid to all that. And so we are where we are today. Who are we to say it should stay preserved in aspic ? Times change, always have.

 

[renewablejohn]

It's about resilience though. All those products could well end up being in short supply during the next crisis, whatever name-tag you attached to that crisis (pandemic, energy...). All of a sudden food and water can become very valuable... and it's also an investment in the future. In that sense the barn to dwelling process is also a worthy investment.

If it ends up in short supply how do yo protect yourself from the hungry mob prepared to steal your crop. What you want to do is easy enough if you know what your doing. Unfortunately very few do know what their doing as I found out trying to help 15 would be permaculture farmers on a ready made site. each farmer had a 30 mtr x 6 mtr plot of outdoor cropping and 9 mtr x 5mtr polytunnel space. Non of them managed to harvest a crop off their full alloted area and most had given up by the time of the second flush of weed seeds.